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[Music]

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hey everyone good evening welcome to

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another live stream with the invisible

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knight school

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my name is leah prime and i'll be your

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host tonight facilitating conversation

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with nick campbell and louis

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tonight we're going to be doing

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something of an open lines approach

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uh for anyone just joining us welcome to

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this stream we're a small consortium of

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lay researchers and scholars

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analytically exploring ufos and uaps

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high strangeness and the cultural and

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social implications of the phenomenon

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you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com we also have a

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public discord which is linked in the

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description

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so without further ado i'm going to

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bring my co-hosts on

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first campbell welcome

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and our resident dubious layman nick

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hey gentlemen so it's been like quite a

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week in ufology um i uh

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and definitely i would say uh recovering

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from some of the events some of the

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energy we've seen online and uh between

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different members of the community and

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so i was hoping we could start off

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tonight uh basically

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um

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in the spirit of i would say community

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resilience talking through

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how to move forward collectively as a

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community what that may look like what

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kind of reconciliation or efforts exist

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uh for us to continue a shared path

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that's a great subject um you know

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there's a lot that goes into

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that kind of question and i think that

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the subjects and

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point of view that we've approached the

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subject with previously like an

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anthropological model really uh

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fits this circumstance well because what

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we're seeing is a very classic example

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of a coherent community beginning to

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rupture and fragment over time and you

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know there are some very serious

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emotional implications involved for the

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what i see happening a lot is that um

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there's a large percentage of this

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community that are content creators and

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with um any kind of audience online

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especially online it has the tendency to

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kind of create parasocial relationships

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with the viewers you know these viewers

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see the content even our content on a

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weekly basis or semi-regularly basis and

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they kind of

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create a relationship between

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the

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and uh

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it can it can lead to having

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kind of expectations

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uh of these people that they're uh

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expecting and kind of um

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almost feel entitled to so when that

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happens there's almost like a

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subconscious internal betrayal that

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happens and when you take these when

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parasocial relationships go south they

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tend to go

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pretty far south and i feel like uh we

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see a lot of that going on with

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you know kind of a lot of the uh

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the main podcasts in in youtube channels

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right now

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and

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you see it more with um like on on

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twitch with twitch streamers and things

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like that or even big youtubers

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they

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stuff and large chunks of those things

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can go bad pretty easily i feel like i

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feel like we're witnessing kind of like

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a smaller version of that

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happening with a few of these shows

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it also right there's also the competing

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and

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um incentivization for a content creator

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right where you want to build and grow

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your audience you want to speak directly

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to your audience and then the the script

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kind of flips and you wind up tailoring

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your content and behaviors to the needs

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of your audience and usually that means

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tailoring it to the needs of an audience

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like your most vocal or ardent

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supporters

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um which i think can also kind of

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collapse down these really uh like more

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nuanced conversations into just sound

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bites right and then we're also all on

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platforms that optimize for this right

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like twitter for example it's a

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soundbite platform it optimizes to

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deliver for clicks and the way you get

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clicks is by selling outrage between

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people it's not life like fomenting

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nuanced collaboration

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true

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louise i was just curious have you uh

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been up to date with this stuff just

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because i know you aren't on twitter

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these days so like with uh lou jimenez

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and like all of the uh sort of stuff

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going on with him

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somewhat but yeah i don't try to delve

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too deep into it because it's seems to

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be like a

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the same sort of thing over and over

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again

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dynamic of um

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this so-called field being more about

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selling a

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world view

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or

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the sense of community than it is about

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pushing scientific inquiry right

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another aspect of the sociology of the

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ufo i guess is to build a people want to

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be part of a community but it's not

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so much to

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get to the truth it's more about

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feeling like somebody else has got your

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this doesn't make sense

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right yeah and i i think it's easy for

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us to assume that everyone's seeking the

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truth but the reality is some people are

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just seeking an audience or they're

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seeking an echo chamber like they're

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seeking validation or emotional support

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um

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and that

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can very quickly become a competing

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priority to seeking truth or reaching a

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conclusion

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and and even if uh you know there's this

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more generalized put like like lou uh

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jimenez like his movement over and over

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with the big home that has been

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i mean agree or disagree with that like

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i don't think there's any question that

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somebody outside of the ufo twitter uh

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community would say like he is like you

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know die hard committed to this

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community and then um you know there's

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been so much conflict and being on his

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stream the other night and seeing like

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all those bots coming on being like

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traitor traitor traitor traitor it was

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like it was really hammering home for me

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that's like there's really high

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intensity emotions involved right now

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and oh yeah it seems to really boil down

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to these things like identity and

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respect and being validated more than

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actually like information

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content and like the evidence like

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louise just mentioned well i mean look

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there's there's a very long and storied

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history of um

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actors entering subcultures to

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deliberately balkanize and and

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fractionalize them you know and that

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doesn't require conspiratorial thinking

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i mean you had cointelpro and the black

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panthers in the united states who are

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running things like community

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self-defense mutual aid providing

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lunches for school children but then you

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have government actors deliberately

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going in and disrupting them because

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they're seen as

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effectively like

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subversive threats to the

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prevailing institutions of power

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and i don't think it's a long voted draw

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to assume that whether it's state actors

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or government actors or just individual

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actors who have

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um very supportive communities like that

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these are the kind of efforts that show

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up in the ufo community too it's still a

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conspiracy subculture um none of us are

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above that

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and they're

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a community that's highly fractionalized

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uh doesn't collaborate doesn't cooperate

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and certainly doesn't move forward

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what do you think the solution to that

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is especially for us as new content

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creators essentially how do we move

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forward without contributing to

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i have no idea

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i mean so like i think about what makes

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our twitter spaces really effective um

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and i bring that up because like we

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haven't had an adversarial twitter space

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we've had people who are crazy show up

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in our twitter spaces but it's not like

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we've had like well okay not crazy

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people who have opinions or experiences

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that are totally outside the realm of my

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comprehension right yeah um

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but

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we don't have this crazy adversarial

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bloodbath that i think can happen in

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these kinds of spaces and a major reason

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i think

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we

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our group in general is not

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we're not wedded to a particular

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teleology i think we're all just

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intellectually curious about this

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subject from a variety of different

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disciplines

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i think the other thing quite frankly is

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one of my first entry into this

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community was in the experiencer

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community it wasn't through like a

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scientific research community which

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means that i've had some ties to the

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experiencer community and i think that

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that helps build bridges

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um

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instead of putting you know experiencer

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versus skeptic against each other

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i think that's a great point

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yeah i saw someone on twitter uh earlier

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asking i think it was a poll um

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when you

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throughout the past like so year or so

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on ufo twitter how have you changed how

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is your perspective change and i really

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mind

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i change constantly you know i ca i came

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into it as a believer as a kid um

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stepped away came back as a skeptic

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became a cynic

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walked away came back and i mean like if

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you look back at the stuff i was writing

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maybe a year ago you'd think i was a

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true believer

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and i've i've veered back towards

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skepticism again but

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that's until i see something that you

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know

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makes me stop and wonder and then i'll

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have a different opinion i think

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i'm always changing based on current

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information more information coming in

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so i guess

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yeah i suppose our content doesn't isn't

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coming from one particular perspective

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yeah and well and that's something that

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we've we've touched on previously is

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what do you use as the framework to

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build a shared reality and something

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we've mentioned several times is the one

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method that's sort of the most concrete

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example the royal society establishing

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take nobody's word for it and then using

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uh verification through replicable

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experiment and empirical evidence as a

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standard and it's an extremely high

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standard

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so when we are in these sort of like

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gray uh boundary uh you know frontier

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science situations that's when that

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standard can't produce a conclusive

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answer and i think that that contributes

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a little bit

286
00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:27,839
to what we're seeing in the community is

287
00:10:33,670 --> 00:10:29,839
that there isn't that

288
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:33,680
clear uh shared world view and

289
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:35,040
because

290
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:39,600
clash that's occurring i think i think

291
00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:42,000
that there would be a lot more people in

292
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:44,320
the uh and you know like it's easy to

293
00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:46,160
say believer but they you know people

294
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:47,680
i've asked they prefer to say call

295
00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:49,680
themselves truth seekers right like they

296
00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:51,040
don't want their

297
00:10:56,710 --> 00:10:53,680
the views to be wrong or inconsistent

298
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:56,720
with reality they want the truth

299
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:58,959
just like we do and so

300
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:01,600
like once you step into the exact

301
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:05,120
details of what is being used to defend

302
00:11:09,509 --> 00:11:07,200
those positions like

303
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:09,519
i think that uh who mentioned it

304
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:11,680
somebody in the comments mentioned like

305
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:13,600
you know it's like we gotta stick to the

306
00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:15,600
information and then we can start having

307
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,600
reasonable arguments about like what

308
00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:19,279
constitutes uh

309
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:22,959
reason uh you know a logic uh chain of

310
00:11:28,150 --> 00:11:25,600
reasoning that is consistent with uh the

311
00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:28,160
best way to ascertain what's actually

312
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:31,279
happening in reality

313
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:33,760
right and i mean

314
00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:35,920
to go a level deeper here too it's then

315
00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:37,760
also getting people onto the same page

316
00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:39,920
about what actually constitutes reliable

317
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:42,720
information and measurement and data

318
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:45,040
because we've talked about this a lot

319
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,320
about how

320
00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:48,560
scientific language is frequently

321
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:50,480
appropriated and folded into this

322
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:51,600
community

323
00:11:55,269 --> 00:11:52,639
without

324
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,279
particular consideration for what those

325
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:57,839
terms or ideas actually mean and what

326
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,760
they um imply

327
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:01,600
absolutely um and

328
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:04,160
nick i i always go back to the movement

329
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:06,880
into scientific ghost hunting being that

330
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:09,120
they didn't include mediums any longer

331
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:11,440
right and that was sort of like the the

332
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:13,200
change in ghost hunting

333
00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:14,959
but that wasn't this exhausting rounds

334
00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:16,399
and that was about that was the uh the

335
00:12:19,110 --> 00:12:18,240
quality right

336
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:19,120
yeah

337
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:21,120
exactly and like and so just by

338
00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:23,279
introducing like you know electronic

339
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:24,720
instruments that automatically made it

340
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:26,480
scientific or in scientific

341
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:29,760
investigation um and this goes back i

342
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:30,480
mean

343
00:12:34,069 --> 00:12:32,320
look i i'm totally uh like monday

344
00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:34,079
morning quarterbacking here because i'm

345
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:37,440
still very much new to this community

346
00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:41,040
but one of the core criteria that or the

347
00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:42,480
the core takeaways i've had from the

348
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:44,959
last couple months has just been the

349
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:46,959
foundational level of scientific and

350
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:48,959
information literacy across the general

351
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,240
population is abysmally poor

352
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:54,079
and i think we live in a media

353
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,680
environment and a cultural environment

354
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,279
that cultivates that

355
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,040
and incentivizes it right this is why we

356
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:01,040
have people watching skinwalker ranch

357
00:13:05,670 --> 00:13:03,120
who based on this tv show think actual

358
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:05,680
real capital r capital s real science is

359
00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:07,839
being done

360
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:09,920
well they just claim that it is right

361
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:12,240
they announce it

362
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,279
right

363
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:16,079
well it's like uh

364
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:18,320
sorry i just socialist flamethrower that

365
00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:20,240
guy on twitter the other day he wrote a

366
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:22,480
comment that said something like uh

367
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:25,200
the people in power are not going to

368
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:27,440
educate the lower classes on how to

369
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:30,480
overthrow them you know it's like yeah

370
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:31,680
that's true

371
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:33,519
so you know you're seeing this constant

372
00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:35,600
decline in uh you know

373
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:37,760
accessibility to education at least in

374
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:40,880
uh united states especially um and that

375
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:43,040
ties into what you were saying uh leah

376
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:46,480
like about the uh fbi and the long

377
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:48,320
prove it well you know document

378
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,880
documented history of uh union busting

379
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:52,560
and things like that like in denmark

380
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:55,040
it's like at least 50 of the populations

381
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:56,800
in a union and they're one of the

382
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,320
happiest countries in the world and they

383
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:00,720
have a much higher freedom index score

384
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,800
than the united states so

385
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:04,959
you know it's like things sort of go

386
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:07,120
upside down on and hey you have to ask

387
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:09,120
why right and when you start looking at

388
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,600
who's benefiting it it maybe becomes a

389
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:12,880
little more clear

390
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:16,160
right like like

391
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:18,160
the tin foil hat crowd totally gets it

392
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:19,760
right when they talk about how much

393
00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:22,240
we're all shaped informed by the media

394
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:24,800
conglomerates but they they don't get

395
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:27,519
the conclusions of that argument correct

396
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:29,519
but what they're saying isn't wrong like

397
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:31,760
all of us you know are very much

398
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,760
all of our media exposure is measured

399
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:35,600
and quantified and algorithmically

400
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:38,240
optimized to feed us what makes us you

401
00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:39,920
know what will incentivize us to spend

402
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:42,160
money make us consume things

403
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:43,600
i say this is a professional who

404
00:14:46,949 --> 00:14:45,440
literally builds these systems or has

405
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:46,959
built them historically

406
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:50,079
um and to suppose that there's not also

407
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:52,320
like psychographic effects on

408
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:54,959
populations exposed to this is extremely

409
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:57,120
short-sighted like we are all very much

410
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:59,760
products of our media environments um

411
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:00,880
and those

412
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:02,959
the creators of that media very

413
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:04,480
deliberately and intentionally craft

414
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:06,399
that media to drive particular both

415
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:08,399
social and economic outcomes like this

416
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:09,519
isn't

417
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:11,600
the uc irvine has a research lab where

418
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:14,480
they hook people up and measure uh

419
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:15,920
the bodily stress response when they

420
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:17,279
watch different movies so they can

421
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:18,959
optimize like movie pacing and

422
00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:20,240
progression

423
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:22,959
to you know get people to engage and

424
00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:25,440
repeatedly view things like this is this

425
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:27,279
is not conspiracy stuff like this is

426
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:32,550
louise uh you're you're an educator

427
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:33,600
right

428
00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:36,399
yeah yeah like what do you do when like

429
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:38,560
do you ever talk to students and they

430
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:41,279
sort of like clearly don't have like a

431
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:42,160
firm

432
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,240
grasp on like what kind of things they

433
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:46,240
should be citing and things like that

434
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:47,600
like how do you approach that in

435
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:49,680
conversation like with an average

436
00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:50,880
student

437
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:53,440
is that something that comes up for you

438
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:55,120
or are you too far up there that that's

439
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:58,079
been weeded out at that point

440
00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:00,399
no i mean um

441
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,320
i don't know um

442
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:05,040
i tell them not to plagiarize but they

443
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:06,480
yeah they never seem to understand how

444
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:08,959
to cite things properly no but i mean

445
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:11,680
i try to sort of introduce some

446
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:14,160
intersections of uh social and political

447
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:15,279
issues and

448
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,040
how they relate to their lives but i

449
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:21,360
also try to

450
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:24,160
talk about how science is important for

451
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:25,440
any

452
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:29,680
have at least some grasp of so that they

453
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:32,079
don't get ripped off or tricked by

454
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:34,800
hucksters or whoever frauds

455
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:37,040
so i mean i try to sort of infuse them

456
00:16:45,829 --> 00:16:43,350
nice and it's not like

457
00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:45,839
like empirical evidence uh i think that

458
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:47,680
people are scared off it a little bit on

459
00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:50,880
the ufo subject because like you know

460
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,079
there's such

461
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,240
so many arguments sort of coming out of

462
00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:56,480
i'd argue the debunker side saying that

463
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:58,720
like the empirical data is like so weak

464
00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:00,240
and it is weak but it's not like

465
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:02,000
non-existent

466
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:02,959
and

467
00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:05,199
i i think that maybe that there's like

468
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:07,679
an unnecessary uh withdrawal from

469
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:09,280
empirical information and like you're

470
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:11,600
saying in everyday life like

471
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:14,400
people use empirical data to decide

472
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,319
whether to cross the road you look both

473
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:19,360
ways like you verify things in reality

474
00:17:23,589 --> 00:17:21,439
based on this methodology all the time

475
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:23,599
right

476
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:26,559
[Music]

477
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:32,789
people are actually the thing i find

478
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:34,080
really interesting is when people are

479
00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:37,679
technically proficient in one area

480
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:39,600
but they they for example they might be

481
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:42,960
um software engineers or something

482
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:45,120
but then they are also young earth

483
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:47,120
creationists

484
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:48,880
this is like ben carson in the united

485
00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:51,039
states yeah right yeah

486
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:51,960
so there's a sort of

487
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:55,200
compartmentalization of expertise

488
00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:56,320
and so

489
00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:58,320
that can make it actually

490
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,880
really easy to trick people because

491
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:02,559
they don't understand how to apply

492
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:05,120
science across the board they just think

493
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:08,880
of it as you know in one domain

494
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:11,679
but it's good to sort of infuse people

495
00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:13,280
with um

496
00:18:16,580 --> 00:18:14,880
the importance of using science as a

497
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,590
general tool

498
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:18,480
[Music]

499
00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:20,160
well speaking from my own experience

500
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,559
going through um public school where i

501
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:24,960
live uh

502
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:27,520
science was a period of memorization

503
00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:30,000
just like any other class in you know k

504
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,320
through 12 critical thinking skills

505
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:34,080
weren't necessarily taught in public

506
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:36,480
education it was

507
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,640
do what the authority says and memorize

508
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,200
what you're told to get through

509
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:43,360
and then once it's gone i couldn't you

510
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:44,559
know um

511
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,320
i took i went to community college for

512
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:48,320
about a year and a half and i i took a

513
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:50,880
few math classes i got up to trig

514
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:52,400
i couldn't tell you a single thing from

515
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,880
any of those classes now just because of

516
00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:56,480
you know that's how i progressed through

517
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:57,600
school that's how i progressed through

518
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:59,600
k-12 and that's how i progressed through

519
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:01,679
that little bit of community college

520
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,240
memorization and regurgitation and then

521
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:06,720
drop it never apply it never think

522
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,720
critically never apply what you learn

523
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:10,720
necessarily just

524
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:12,880
do the drills and i think that's kind of

525
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:14,799
a problem and i know that um

526
00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:16,559
you know you spoke to this a little bit

527
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:19,280
earlier it's it's primarily a u.s kind

528
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:21,520
of issue it seems like which is uh makes

529
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:23,280
up probably a large demographic of the

530
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:24,559
ufo community

531
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:27,440
my critical thinking skills wasn't

532
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:30,480
anything i even considered until

533
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:32,960
kind of my move into the skeptic domain

534
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,960
years ago

535
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:37,200
yeah i am i want to call it duncan first

536
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:40,000
comment here quote education in america

537
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:41,919
is failing its citizens who then move in

538
00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:44,799
directions that fail democracy itself in

539
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:46,400
the interest of full disclosure he's a

540
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,760
former high school english and

541
00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:49,520
journalism teacher

542
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:51,679
and anyone paying attention to uh

543
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:54,880
current discourse in america you know um

544
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:57,919
there's a proposed uh

545
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:00,960
student debt relief to the tune of ten

546
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:02,480
thousand dollars we don't have like

547
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:04,559
socialized education in this country uh

548
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:08,080
not higher ed and um there's also a

549
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:10,320
substantial you know pushback against

550
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:12,960
this to the tune of well if we can

551
00:20:16,549 --> 00:20:14,640
with student debt forgiveness we can't

552
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:16,559
incentivize people to join the military

553
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:19,440
which is uh a very concerning thought

554
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:21,760
right that you're coercing people um

555
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:23,919
into joining the military in service of

556
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:26,640
uh effectively indentured servitude um

557
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:29,280
and then there's loud there yeah yeah

558
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,039
exactly and then you know there's also

559
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:33,120
comments from uh you know dug up from

560
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:35,039
the 80s from ronald reagan about the

561
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:36,720
dangers of having a well-educated

562
00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:38,960
basically proletariat or working class

563
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:40,880
you know and it's in i mean let's be

564
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:42,400
real like this is all by design here

565
00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:44,000
that we've effectively created like the

566
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:46,000
london proletariat in this country like

567
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:47,679
we've created temporary embarrassed

568
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:49,760
millionaires rather than

569
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:52,240
truly critically thinking uh

570
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,760
individuals acting with substantial

571
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:55,600
agency

572
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,520
i feel like we're veering into

573
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,360
uh dangerous waters here getting a

574
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:01,520
little political but yeah i completely

575
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:02,880
agree with you

576
00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:05,280
well so so one of the things i i think

577
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:07,120
about like so um

578
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:10,320
i did my undergrad at a

579
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:11,600
i think it's probably considered one of

580
00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:13,200
the most apolitical schools in the

581
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:15,120
country at an engineering school in the

582
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,400
northeast

583
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,080
um and

584
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,240
i encountered during my education

585
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:22,159
stephen jay gould who wrote this essay

586
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,159
called non-overlapping magisteria and

587
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:26,320
it's basically his assessment of

588
00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:28,960
how you can be intellectually genuine in

589
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:31,280
pursuing both scientific and uh the

590
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:32,720
religious realms

591
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:34,640
and he basically talks about the

592
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:36,640
non-overlapping magisteria of these two

593
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:38,880
disciplines is quote science tries to

594
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:40,640
document the factual character of the

595
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:42,480
natural world and to develop theories

596
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,559
that coordinate and explain these facts

597
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:46,400
religion on the other hand operates in

598
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,760
the equally important but utterly

599
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:49,679
different realm of human purpose meaning

600
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:51,840
and values subjects that the factual

601
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:53,600
domain of science might illuminate but

602
00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:55,440
can never resolve

603
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:57,760
kind of the distinction between how and

604
00:22:00,630 --> 00:21:58,640
why

605
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,640
exactly and that's what i think of a lot

606
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:03,120
in this community right like i think of

607
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:04,799
um

608
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:07,039
that it may exist in such a liminal

609
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:09,039
space between the

610
00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:12,159
quantifiable and empirical method and

611
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:15,039
the sort of experiential or like more

612
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:16,320
numinous

613
00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:17,280
um

614
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:22,159
you almost would require like a

615
00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:24,080
comprehensive

616
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:26,400
and complex third path

617
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:29,440
to appropriately explore it and evaluate

618
00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:31,520
it

619
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:35,919
well and that's uh i think where like

620
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:38,320
the interdisciplinary side comes in with

621
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:41,919
uh anthropology and folklore because

622
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:44,880
you can have the hard physical sciences

623
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:47,919
uh be applied to this subject and

624
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:49,280
this is something that i find so

625
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:51,360
interesting about the history of the

626
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:54,559
published material uh on on the subject

627
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:57,280
so like uh the field studies that has

628
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:00,880
dawlin and um some other studies like

629
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:03,520
the it's not a field study but it was a

630
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:05,280
researcher went to quebec after an

631
00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:08,720
earthquake and got a bunch of reports of

632
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:10,640
luminous phenomena and stuff like that

633
00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:12,960
that was published in an earth sciences

634
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,960
journal and there's other examples of

635
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:16,799
things like that so you have like this

636
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:19,840
body of kind of like it's not conclusive

637
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:22,880
information but it

638
00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:25,360
paints a picture that there is enough

639
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:28,080
face there to look at it and sort of

640
00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:29,919
think about it especially with respect

641
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:31,280
to the history of earth sciences where

642
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:33,280
this is the exact precedent where we've

643
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:36,480
had revolutionary breakthroughs

644
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:37,280
but

645
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:40,320
once you start getting into what it is

646
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:42,400
rather than the pure observations

647
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,679
everybody tunes out and uh you know love

648
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:47,120
him or hate him now that's what i find

649
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:49,600
so interesting about dr masa irani

650
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:51,919
because his entire life has been him

651
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:53,600
being uh and he was the one who wrote

652
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,960
the paper from hezdalin and did the

653
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:57,120
field studies he's been thrown out of

654
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:59,039
all these communities over and over and

655
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,720
sort of like bounced back and forth

656
00:24:04,549 --> 00:24:02,720
until he's like become stuck in the

657
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:04,559
middle where everybody hates them

658
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:06,960
because in the physical sciences he's

659
00:24:10,789 --> 00:24:09,279
like you know these are consistent with

660
00:24:13,029 --> 00:24:10,799
an electrochemical model for ball

661
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:13,039
lightning and then all of the uh you

662
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:14,799
know

663
00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:16,960
truth seekers say like that's

664
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:19,360
invalidating you're insulting me

665
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:21,200
get out of here even though he himself

666
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:23,600
is an experiencer multiple times and

667
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,159
then um you know in the in the hard

668
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:28,480
physical sciences when he describes

669
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:30,840
observations like that he's

670
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:32,320
uh he

671
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:34,480
basically called out for

672
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:37,360
trying to ascertain what it is and then

673
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:39,279
he starts talking in order to try to

674
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,360
appeal to the uh

675
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:43,440
or you know his own convictions about it

676
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:45,200
but he uh thinks that there's like

677
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:48,159
potentially some kind of like life like

678
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:48,960
uh

679
00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:54,799
that weirds out the physical scientists

680
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,279
you know and maybe not for like terrible

681
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:58,720
reasons even though there are published

682
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:01,200
papers that suggest that it has lifelike

683
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:03,279
qualities but so you end up with like

684
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:04,559
the situation where you are stuck in the

685
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:05,840
middle if you take the actual data

686
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:07,279
seriously and and that's part of the

687
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:09,279
problem that goes back for decades now

688
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:10,480
and um

689
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:13,440
i think we might start to move towards

690
00:25:17,909 --> 00:25:16,240
once or if the galileo project

691
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:17,919
replicates some of these observations

692
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:20,000
that he made uh in his field studies i

693
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:21,279
think then we might actually start

694
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:22,640
seeing the ball move forward and i'm

695
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:23,919
very curious

696
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:25,440
if one of these like extraordinary

697
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,640
things like the roosevelt thing where

698
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:28,159
it's like it looks exactly like a ball

699
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:30,480
of plasma like if that is like

700
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:33,200
this determined by the top physical

701
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:35,200
scientists like oh this is a ball

702
00:25:39,029 --> 00:25:36,880
lightning like what are we going to see

703
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:39,039
happen after that once we've already

704
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:40,480
seen the level of fragmentation

705
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:42,720
occurring once the mainstream narrative

706
00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:44,640
if if the mainstream narrative becomes

707
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:46,240
like oh yeah these are novel physical

708
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:47,440
phenomena that's a kind of ball

709
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:48,640
lightning like these signs has been

710
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:50,080
saying for decades

711
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:51,440
i can't even imagine what's going to

712
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,039
happen in the community

713
00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:55,120
well uh take a look at what happened

714
00:25:57,909 --> 00:25:56,799
with covet in the u.s over the past

715
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:57,919
couple years

716
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:01,279
right i mean um cognitive dissonance is

717
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:02,960
a powerful force

718
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,799
you know you had a large swath of the

719
00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:06,159
community who did not believe it in the

720
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,240
first few months you know so maybe that

721
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:10,000
will happen maybe it'll eventually catch

722
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:12,799
on if this hypothetical was the case

723
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:14,320
so i don't i don't know i don't i don't

724
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:16,080
know that it would tear it up right away

725
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:17,120
i think

726
00:26:21,669 --> 00:26:20,480
fact

727
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:21,679
you know what this reminds me of so i

728
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:22,880
was um

729
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:25,520
sort of my

730
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:28,000
i was just talking about jack parsons um

731
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:29,520
and i bring this up because jack parsons

732
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:32,080
was totally autoduct uh during the

733
00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:34,400
emergent stages of basically like jet

734
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:37,600
propulsion and aeronautics

735
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,799
and i think when you have these

736
00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:42,080
leading

737
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:45,520
fields of study particularly in emergent

738
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,840
fields or in highly interdisciplinary

739
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:49,279
fields

740
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:51,120
you know there's no established

741
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:53,679
curriculum or criteria to prepare

742
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:56,320
someone for being in that industry

743
00:27:01,430 --> 00:26:59,200
or in that area of study and so what

744
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:01,440
we're left with in this community is

745
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:02,720
sort of this

746
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:04,480
piecemeal hodgepodge of different

747
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,400
backgrounds and experiences

748
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:08,480
um where people are basically forced you

749
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:10,240
have to be an autoduct right there's no

750
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:11,919
like standard curriculum there's no like

751
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:13,840
core group of classes or competencies

752
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:15,520
that people who work in this field or

753
00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:17,919
research in this field

754
00:27:21,909 --> 00:27:20,240
and as a result you know you have uh

755
00:27:24,149 --> 00:27:21,919
people singing from very different song

756
00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:24,159
sheets basically all the time and you

757
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:26,399
also have no sort of prevailing

758
00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:29,279
institution of record to

759
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:31,279
act as like the arbiter of reality in

760
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,919
this space i mean even you know it like

761
00:27:37,029 --> 00:27:35,679
you don't have like uh

762
00:27:39,909 --> 00:27:37,039
well there is i was going to say there

763
00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:39,919
is a journal coming out a ufo studies

764
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:41,919
journal that's supposed to be coming out

765
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:44,080
i think early next year that i guess

766
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:45,679
would you know yeah would meet some of

767
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:48,399
these like peer review standards

768
00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:51,120
but this is kind of the wild west right

769
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:52,159
and you have

770
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:54,799
the citizen researcher or open source

771
00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:55,919
researcher

772
00:28:00,710 --> 00:27:58,000
alongside people with you know i would

773
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:00,720
say more formalized academic

774
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:02,799
research background and experience try

775
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:04,480
all trying to forge their way in this

776
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:06,880
field and there's no there's no like

777
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:09,760
prevailing uh a central authority to

778
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,880
sort of

779
00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:12,000
um

780
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:14,320
assess and determine

781
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:17,919
what the standards of proof or thought

782
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,840
or evidence need to look like in order

783
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:21,520
to be considered part of like the

784
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:24,799
institutional knowledge of the studies

785
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:26,960
that's kind of like what i appreciate

786
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:29,279
about this group now because

787
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,399
we are all coming from different

788
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,720
backgrounds so i can take the research

789
00:28:36,149 --> 00:28:34,240
that i've been doing and bounce it off

790
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:36,159
all of you guys just just for a better

791
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:37,440
perspective

792
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:39,520
you know am i missing large holes here

793
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,880
am i uh

794
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:43,200
omitting the obvious am i

795
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,279
too biased and can't see it you know

796
00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:47,360
throwing it off you guys having you guys

797
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:49,679
edit the things i write has been really

798
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:51,360
helpful especially because of your

799
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:56,630
yeah this is this is a good question

800
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,720
coming in from duncan again well the new

801
00:29:01,909 --> 00:29:00,480
entity is demanded by congress becomes

802
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:01,919
sentient entities so i guess this would

803
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:04,480
be like one of these kind of arbiters

804
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:06,480
that sit at the top of like a particular

805
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:09,760
discipline um you know maybe we'll see

806
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:12,159
um i brought this up before but i'm

807
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:15,840
hesitant to uh defer to governmental

808
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:18,240
resources and authorities particularly

809
00:29:23,590 --> 00:29:20,960
in this field given its um i would say

810
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:23,600
general mistrust of these institutions

811
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:24,399
um

812
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:25,600
when i think of sort of what these

813
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:28,480
effective uh arbiters will be i like the

814
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:30,720
galileo project comes to mind like i

815
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:32,240
don't know if that's exactly its final

816
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,720
form but that feels to me like like

817
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:36,559
what's on the correct path towards

818
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:38,080
establishing these institutions of

819
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:40,720
record uh for considering these subjects

820
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:42,480
and i think candidly like i think it

821
00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:45,760
helps to have the uh the

822
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,240
conferred authority of an institution

823
00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:50,799
like harvard even this you know even if

824
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:52,640
if and when it's kind of spun out fully

825
00:29:55,830 --> 00:29:54,399
from harvard the institution it still

826
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:55,840
helps to have that kind of pedigree

827
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,679
behind it to legitimize it rather than

828
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:59,279
just having a governmental authority

829
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:00,960
behind it

830
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,279
well it's a good point and are you guys

831
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:05,520
familiar with the stanford

832
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:08,080
in 1998 they came together in a

833
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:11,120
conference there financed by one of the

834
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:14,640
i think lawrence rockefeller and

835
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:15,440
that

836
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:17,840
conference at stanford sort of kicked

837
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:19,279
off the new

838
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:22,880
ufo movement because of almost the uh

839
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:24,720
well i guess the exact type of thing

840
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:27,520
where this uh prominent institution held

841
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:29,840
a conference with academics and they

842
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:31,760
brought in it was like eight different

843
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:34,960
uh you know academic ufo researchers and

844
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,679
it included erlang strand from mossfold

845
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:39,520
university college in norway who did the

846
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:41,360
project as dahlin and there were a few

847
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:43,120
other people like uh i can't remember

848
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:45,200
their names but anyway it's all in there

849
00:30:47,909 --> 00:30:46,000
so

850
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:47,919
there's this endless

851
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:50,720
cyclicality in this subject and we've

852
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:52,960
sort of we see the same things over and

853
00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:54,720
over because we have the legitimate

854
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:56,399
institution saying like those are there

855
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:58,480
there let's take a look and then you've

856
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,080
got the government uh seizing control of

857
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:04,399
the narrative by actually introducing

858
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:06,640
a formal system and what does that look

859
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:09,440
like it looks exactly like the 1960s and

860
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:11,120
what did that accomplish for them it

861
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:13,200
enabled them to gain control of the

862
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:14,960
public narrative

863
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:17,120
and then produce an outcome that we now

864
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:18,960
know through the records that are

865
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,360
established for the correspondence was a

866
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:23,279
foregone conclusion that we need to shut

867
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:25,120
this thing down for national security

868
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:27,279
reasons because of the soviets using

869
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:29,440
this in a variety of ways against us the

870
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:32,399
subject itself not even uh ufos as an

871
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:33,760
object so

872
00:31:37,830 --> 00:31:35,760
like this looks exactly like all these

873
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:37,840
other cycles over and over again and

874
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,919
people jumping up and down

875
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:41,440
for like oh yes they're taking it

876
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:43,360
seriously and it's like you look at the

877
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:45,360
history of like taking it seriously and

878
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,000
it's purely in order to take control

879
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,880
back from the public and

880
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:52,720
i just sort of see this

881
00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:55,279
thing where people are running directly

882
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:57,919
into that and like you know from the

883
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,679
outside it would be it's sort of like

884
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:01,279
okay the government's actually like

885
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,720
doing work on national security it's

886
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:04,320
doing what they're supposed to do from

887
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:07,519
inside the community i can't understand

888
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:09,840
the uh enthusiasm given the history of

889
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,350
right people are in all history

890
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:17,279
that's a good point yeah because that

891
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:18,880
explains it all

892
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:19,760
yeah

893
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:24,159
look at it and uh

894
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:30,630
will be perfect

895
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:33,039
yes yeah it's it's it's uh discussions

896
00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:34,640
all the way down in this community right

897
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:36,559
even if you think you've reached some

898
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:38,399
sort of meaningful conclusion it's

899
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:41,120
always going to be resurfaced 15 20

900
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:43,360
years later to again be eternally

901
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:45,919
rehashed it's the eternal recurrence of

902
00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:50,870
absolutely what about what do you guys

903
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,720
think is the um

904
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:54,000
i don't know if anyone's done any

905
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:55,600
surveys but uh

906
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:57,919
to sort of determine this but um what

907
00:33:02,630 --> 00:32:59,840
proportion of the

908
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:02,640
so-called community is uh on the on the

909
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:03,760
fence

910
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:05,519
because like what you were talking about

911
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:07,919
before campbell about how is the

912
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:10,480
you know if we got high-res data about

913
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:12,080
ball lightning

914
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:13,760
um

915
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:15,120
and then like how would the community

916
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:18,000
respond to that that will depend on the

917
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:19,919
the relative proportions of people who

918
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:21,600
are on the fence about

919
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:24,399
one hypothesis or versus another

920
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:26,880
versus those who are very dogmatic or

921
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:29,200
entrenched in a certain

922
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:32,240
hypothesis like maybe the et hypothesis

923
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:34,720
they're going to probably double down

924
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:37,440
right but other people would just switch

925
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,159
relatively quickly when i ask around

926
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:42,880
about what people's personal uh thoughts

927
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:45,519
or hypotheses are about this i can never

928
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:47,840
find a straight answer from anyone i

929
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:49,279
ask

930
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:52,640
i usually presume default eth but maybe

931
00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:54,080
that's not the case because everyone

932
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:55,200
always says

933
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:57,200
i was never saying aliens

934
00:33:59,509 --> 00:33:58,080
yeah

935
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,519
and also because

936
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:01,679
everyone's basically not everyone maybe

937
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:04,880
but there's a big trope that

938
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:08,720
the phenomena is many things

939
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:10,399
so like you could always say well if

940
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:12,320
it's bore lightning

941
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,320
yeah like what matt's saying there it's

942
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:16,000
not all one phenomenon

943
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:17,040
so like

944
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:19,359
we find more about ball lightning um you

945
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:20,960
could just say that these other cases

946
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,800
are not explained by that

947
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:24,320
because uh there's something different

948
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:29,589
there is

949
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:31,599
it feels too like that maybe i mean this

950
00:34:35,829 --> 00:34:33,839
would be not that i need to add on to

951
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,839
the invisible night school workload but

952
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:37,440
it feels like there is this need to

953
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,599
almost conduct

954
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:41,679
uh almost an ethnographic study of the

955
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:42,800
community

956
00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:44,800
right like to treat it as you would

957
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:47,760
treat any other kind of subculture or

958
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,280
identity and survey and hear from its

959
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,280
members both from a quantitative and a

960
00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:55,280
qualitative perspective like doing a

961
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:58,000
kind of broad overview an ethnographic

962
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:59,040
interview

963
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:01,359
uh series with you know 500 or a

964
00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:03,760
thousand people like i think of like uh

965
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:07,119
alfred kinsey studying sex in the you

966
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:09,119
know the mid-20th century because this

967
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:11,119
is kind of a taboo subject so you'd have

968
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:12,800
to conduct this sort of survey in a

969
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:15,040
pretty thoughtful and deliberate fashion

970
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:16,240
that would be sensitive to its

971
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,599
participants

972
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:19,520
but um i could see where this would be a

973
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:21,839
really fascinating and interesting

974
00:35:26,069 --> 00:35:24,079
exploration of

975
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:26,079
the prevailing beliefs how those beliefs

976
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:28,880
may map to different uh psychographic

977
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:31,200
and demographic traits that the

978
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:33,040
individuals possess

979
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,880
um and

980
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:36,640
ideally you would do it longitudinally

981
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:38,800
right because you've seen even just the

982
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:41,119
community ideas about these subjects

983
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:43,119
shift and emerge frequently i think in

984
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:46,320
response to popular or common anxieties

985
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:48,960
or news cycles or world events

986
00:35:55,349 --> 00:35:51,520
um but to kind of get a sense of how

987
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:55,359
people's notions just evolve over time

988
00:36:00,230 --> 00:35:57,200
and i would be very interested in

989
00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:00,240
knowing too like who are the

990
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:02,640
who are these like nodes in the network

991
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:04,000
that

992
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:05,440
serve to

993
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,440
shape or change minds and ideas more

994
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:11,520
than any others so i think of like maybe

995
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:13,520
the x-files would be a media source that

996
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:15,760
would be like that or coast-to-coast am

997
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:18,320
or alex jones like like who are the sort

998
00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:19,119
of

999
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:21,359
um

1000
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:23,520
experts quote-unquote that the community

1001
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:26,400
defers to when it comes to the shift in

1002
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,640
mindset or opinion about the subject

1003
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:32,240
well that's uh

1004
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:34,160
that ties in so well to what we started

1005
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:36,000
this with right because we've been

1006
00:36:41,150 --> 00:36:38,880
seeing uh louise jimenez

1007
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:41,160
experience

1008
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:44,800
sociologically the uh chain of events

1009
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:45,599
that

1010
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:49,040
results from a violation of social norms

1011
00:36:53,310 --> 00:36:50,720
within a community

1012
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:53,320
he's experiencing

1013
00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:55,280
ostracization at least the beginning

1014
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:57,680
stages of it and uh you know his

1015
00:37:01,349 --> 00:36:59,920
resistance to that is

1016
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:01,359
producing a very

1017
00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:04,400
you know predictable feedback loop uh in

1018
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:06,839
many uh respects

1019
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:11,359
so yeah like it's uh it's sad to see but

1020
00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:14,320
um like i i have a pretty

1021
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:16,800
strong sense of

1022
00:37:23,030 --> 00:37:20,000
what would get me thrown out if i put it

1023
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:23,040
out there on ufo twitter after being uh

1024
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:25,520
commenting on this subject for about 14

1025
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:28,079
months actively especially starting on

1026
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:31,520
reddit and being entirely communicating

1027
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:34,000
with experiencers after

1028
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:36,640
having zero success trying to interact

1029
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:39,119
with skeptics about the uh science uh

1030
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:40,640
papers i found

1031
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:43,440
and um i developed yeah and you know i

1032
00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:45,760
feel like uh

1033
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:47,680
you know like nick you've been uh

1034
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:50,000
talking with people uh and louise as

1035
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:52,079
well like uh actively kind of arguing

1036
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,839
with people for so long like would you

1037
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,160
guys agree that you sort of have like a

1038
00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:58,240
feeling of what's gonna like

1039
00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:00,720
upset someone if you say it because it's

1040
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:02,640
hitting one of these like

1041
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:05,599
data points that conflicts with uh sort

1042
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:13,190
yeah and so it's like we could almost

1043
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:15,839
like reactively

1044
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:20,400
sketch out the nature of the you know

1045
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:22,000
ufo

1046
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:23,440
sort of community

1047
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:25,359
set of like shared beliefs that you

1048
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:29,040
can't uh challenge through our like

1049
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:31,440
subjective experience of coming up

1050
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:32,800
against it

1051
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:34,800
you know it's almost like a blind person

1052
00:38:38,230 --> 00:38:36,560
in the dark kind of feeling it out you

1053
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,240
know it's like i hadn't i know the

1054
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,800
general shape of it

1055
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:42,960
and leah have you uh had a hit like i

1056
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,720
know that you uh recently have been like

1057
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:46,720
active but you were watching like ucr

1058
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:49,119
for a time have you ever had a period of

1059
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:50,800
like kind of

1060
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:52,160
critically

1061
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:54,079
engaging with people in the community or

1062
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,839
has it just been sort of more active

1063
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:57,839
like interest so far

1064
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:01,280
for me so my general view is look

1065
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:04,079
at at my heart i'm truly a i would say a

1066
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,920
sociologist and i always have been i'm

1067
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:08,000
so fascinated in what makes people do

1068
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:09,280
what they do and believe what they

1069
00:39:12,630 --> 00:39:11,520
believe

1070
00:39:16,190 --> 00:39:12,640
i

1071
00:39:19,109 --> 00:39:16,200
or

1072
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:19,119
adversarially around any of this and um

1073
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,160
i would say that's largely because i

1074
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:24,560
don't feel like i have the requisite

1075
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:27,599
informational background or knowledge to

1076
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:28,880
do so

1077
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:30,880
um and also because

1078
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:34,880
for me i think of it almost as a study

1079
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:36,480
i think of this the same way i think of

1080
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:39,440
studying religion or philosophy where

1081
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:42,079
there's a variety of human thought and

1082
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:44,160
experience in this space

1083
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,599
and

1084
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:48,480
while i personally may find particular

1085
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:52,160
ideas or beliefs distasteful or contrary

1086
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:55,040
to my own reality

1087
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,400
um

1088
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:58,320
i'm not especially interested or

1089
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:01,520
invested in arguing i'm more interested

1090
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:04,960
and invested in being exposed to these

1091
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:08,079
different ideas and thoughts

1092
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:09,760
but what i what i will say which i think

1093
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,280
is interesting

1094
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:13,520
um and i i can't remember what

1095
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:15,200
conversation it came up in but it was

1096
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:17,599
basically like what's your dividing line

1097
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:19,280
like what's what's the line in the sand

1098
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:21,440
that you have that's a bridge too far

1099
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:24,160
for belief right like what's the case or

1100
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:25,520
the person

1101
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:28,079
um and i bring this up because again

1102
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:29,599
this is this is still a conspiracy

1103
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:31,760
subculture and there's a huge amount of

1104
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:33,200
latent and

1105
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:35,040
direct mental illness present in the

1106
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:36,480
subculture and like how do you know when

1107
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:38,640
you talk to people and engage with them

1108
00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:40,079
are you

1109
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:42,119
um implicitly

1110
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:45,040
incentivizing a participation and

1111
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:47,440
cultivation of a deeply unwell world

1112
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:49,040
view that could even be potentially

1113
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:50,960
dangerous right and i think that that's

1114
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:53,200
something on a personal level that i can

1115
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:54,400
struggle with

1116
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:55,839
um

1117
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:57,200
because

1118
00:41:03,990 --> 00:40:58,880
uh

1119
00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:05,990
i think that when we readily accept

1120
00:41:10,870 --> 00:41:08,480
without critical pushback

1121
00:41:13,109 --> 00:41:10,880
different narratives it legitimizes them

1122
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:13,119
and through that legitimization

1123
00:41:17,109 --> 00:41:14,640
it can

1124
00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:17,119
compound and cause pretty deleterious

1125
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:19,119
effects not just in the community but in

1126
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:21,520
society at large

1127
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,240
and i when i think about that i i

1128
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,800
i think internally i struggle a bit with

1129
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:28,720
how to thoughtfully engage with this

1130
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:30,480
community in a way that feels like it's

1131
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:32,880
not contributing to the unwinding of

1132
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:34,400
consensus reality

1133
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:37,040
or epistemological crisis

1134
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:38,880
how do i do this in a way that doesn't

1135
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:42,400
encourage or cultivate um deeply

1136
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:44,240
conspiratorial and sort of

1137
00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:47,119
anti-community thinking you know but but

1138
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:50,160
i will say um i i've been i would say

1139
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:52,240
pleasantly surprised at

1140
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:54,400
how

1141
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:59,760
stuff i've encountered in this community

1142
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:01,599
given it's a community that is like i

1143
00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:04,240
said it's a conspiracy culture um

1144
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:05,680
you're right i i have similar

1145
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:08,000
experiences i they don't go too far off

1146
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:11,920
of their own rabbit hole it seems like

1147
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:13,280
yeah

1148
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:15,040
it seems like the um as you were

1149
00:42:25,109 --> 00:42:22,230
i i feel like and jason colavito and

1150
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:25,119
others have mentioned this well that um

1151
00:42:29,829 --> 00:42:27,200
the thought leaders in this

1152
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:29,839
field so-called fields are they tend to

1153
00:42:33,829 --> 00:42:31,680
be

1154
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:33,839
male

1155
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:34,880
and um

1156
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:36,000
white

1157
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:40,240
older

1158
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:42,400
right like like this is the oldest

1159
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:45,040
subculture i've had my hands in so far

1160
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:46,880
except for maybe ham radio ham radio is

1161
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,349
but the the the rank and file if you

1162
00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:55,440
like they tend to be much more

1163
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:58,480
if anything progressive and left-leaning

1164
00:43:01,670 --> 00:43:00,079
i guess liberal

1165
00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:01,680
so what explains

1166
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:03,119
that

1167
00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:04,960
dichotomy do you think

1168
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:08,800
you know i just heard so there's i i um

1169
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:10,480
i want to say i'm a peter lavender

1170
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:12,240
acolyte without actually saying i

1171
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:13,760
totally agree with and believe

1172
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:15,440
everything he says but i think he's an

1173
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,960
interesting guy and he just did this

1174
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:18,480
great interview with i think it was

1175
00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:20,160
engaging the phenomenon

1176
00:43:24,109 --> 00:43:22,079
um and one of the things he talked about

1177
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:24,119
was basically the kind of

1178
00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:26,720
socio-political shift in the community

1179
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,079
how this was

1180
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:30,560
always kind of the domain of the left in

1181
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:33,200
the new age through the 50s and 60s and

1182
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:35,760
70s but that we've seen it kind of

1183
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:37,760
swing into this quote unquote a

1184
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,880
political or nonpartisan space and also

1185
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:42,800
be picked up by frankly like a whole lot

1186
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:44,480
of the alt-right and like that that has

1187
00:43:48,309 --> 00:43:46,720
sort of been an emergent trend

1188
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,319
um

1189
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:50,640
and i you know the the very cynical side

1190
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:51,920
of me thinks that that's largely

1191
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,520
attributable not because the alt-right

1192
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:55,280
particularly cares about ufos or

1193
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:56,960
anything but because this is an

1194
00:44:02,309 --> 00:43:59,359
extremely useful and powerful vehicle to

1195
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:02,319
continue unwinding consensus reality and

1196
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:04,240
to undermine popular trust and

1197
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:06,319
governmental institutions

1198
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:08,640
um and that this is a very good vehicle

1199
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:10,720
for that because people see the

1200
00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:13,359
discussion of ufos and ufology as kind

1201
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,839
of a indulgent taboo

1202
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,280
is that why you think like tucker

1203
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:18,960
carlson is picking this up and running

1204
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:20,319
with it

1205
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:21,599
yeah do you think tucker do you think

1206
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:23,680
tucker carlson gives even the tiniest

1207
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:26,160
about ufos like dude is like the

1208
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:27,440
right like he's literally like the

1209
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:29,839
official media organ of the alt-right on

1210
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:31,200
the sort of like

1211
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:33,280
state-sponsored channel for this and

1212
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:34,800
frankly like

1213
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:37,599
i i think that um

1214
00:44:42,069 --> 00:44:39,760
i think it's a damn shame that gary

1215
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:42,079
nolan is bringing his talent onto that

1216
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:43,040
show

1217
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:46,079
like a and but i also would fully expect

1218
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:48,480
that this is a show and i'm stationed

1219
00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:49,920
that like he's not getting calls from

1220
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:51,839
rachel maddow you know and he's not

1221
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:54,480
getting calls from npr

1222
00:44:58,470 --> 00:44:56,640
right and you'll see that that uh a lot

1223
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:58,480
of the community will use that as a

1224
00:45:01,270 --> 00:44:59,920
justification they're like well it's

1225
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:01,280
getting coverage it's becoming

1226
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:03,839
mainstream so we ignore kind of the

1227
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:07,280
platform that it's on um for the sake of

1228
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:09,280
getting it out there as if these ends

1229
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:11,200
justify the means but what there is what

1230
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:12,560
are these ends

1231
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:14,000
right like what are we actually trying

1232
00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:14,880
to do if we're trying to get to

1233
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:16,400
government disclosure like why are we

1234
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:18,960
working and collaborating with like the

1235
00:45:23,349 --> 00:45:21,280
literal institutions that are trying to

1236
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:23,359
undermine and dismantle

1237
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:25,359
government authority at basically every

1238
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,240
turn yeah

1239
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:32,550
but also i should mention um

1240
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:34,560
something that was alluding to something

1241
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:36,960
mentioned earlier um

1242
00:45:41,829 --> 00:45:38,480
that's strangely enough now it's the

1243
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:41,839
alt-right or the extreme right which is

1244
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:43,760
rebelling against institutions like the

1245
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:49,510
investigations against trump

1246
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:50,960
so like

1247
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:53,839
lunatic fringe on the right and the gop

1248
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:54,640
are

1249
00:46:02,470 --> 00:46:00,309
they would be seen basically as

1250
00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:02,480
terrorists back in the 60s if they were

1251
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,760
thinking stuff like this like there

1252
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:06,079
would have been cohen's help probed you

1253
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,560
know out of existence this is dude like

1254
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:10,640
this like when i think about 19 like

1255
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:13,599
this is classic like 1990s

1256
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:15,920
conspiracy thinking too like this is the

1257
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:18,800
right wing of waco of the oklahoma city

1258
00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:21,599
bombing right um of of

1259
00:46:26,069 --> 00:46:23,680
it and i think we feel the echoes of

1260
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:26,079
that now uh both in what lewis is

1261
00:46:30,069 --> 00:46:27,760
talking about we see the echoes of it in

1262
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:30,079
like this accelerationist world view

1263
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:31,839
that like the faster we can bring about

1264
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:34,160
the decay of existing institutions the

1265
00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:35,680
more we can welcome like i don't know

1266
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:37,839
the great white race or whatever

1267
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:39,359
um

1268
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:43,680
but i mean this is this is like deeply

1269
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,000
um

1270
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:47,839
this

1271
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:49,599
anti-government

1272
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:52,319
view of the right

1273
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:55,520
this is very much a returning and this

1274
00:46:58,950 --> 00:46:57,040
if people are interested in this subject

1275
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,960
there's a wonderful book wonderful i i

1276
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,560
should choose my words better there is

1277
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:02,400
an extremely insightful and

1278
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,240
informationally valuable book called

1279
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:06,720
bring the war home and it's basically

1280
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,480
about the emergence of the white

1281
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:10,800
separatist movements after the vietnam

1282
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:11,760
war

1283
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:14,720
and the sort of training that soldiers

1284
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:16,319
were given that they then brought back

1285
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:18,960
to these anti-government sort of free

1286
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:21,280
men on the land movements

1287
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:23,359
and it wouldn't surprise me like that's

1288
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:26,000
what i feel like the right is kind of

1289
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:28,079
returning to now that it's

1290
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:30,400
authoritarian figurehead is no longer in

1291
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:31,760
power like they're kind of just

1292
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:33,359
regressing back to their normal state

1293
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,400
which is that they don't trust the

1294
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:36,960
government at all which i mean let's be

1295
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:38,880
real again like they're right but for

1296
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:40,400
the wrong reasons you shouldn't trust

1297
00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:41,520
the government

1298
00:47:50,829 --> 00:47:49,910
another great book um sort of touches on

1299
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:50,839
that is

1300
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,359
um how the south won the civil war

1301
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:57,520
by uh elizabeth

1302
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:00,400
what's her name elizabeth cox

1303
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:03,040
i forget but she's a scholar of um the

1304
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:06,000
civil war and the post-war period and

1305
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:07,760
she talks about how there's always been

1306
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:10,000
this kind of anti-government sentiment

1307
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:11,280
among

1308
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:14,960
white southerners because of you know

1309
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:16,960
uh conflicts to do with the institution

1310
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:18,319
of slavery

1311
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:21,200
and um that has kind of carried on and

1312
00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:23,200
corrupted and seeped into everything

1313
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:24,400
after

1314
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:25,839
the you know

1315
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:28,160
the north won the civil war

1316
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:29,680
and it's kind of you know in ways which

1317
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:32,319
are really surprising and um

1318
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:34,319
yeah it's a great book though but it

1319
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:36,240
really does kind of situate a lot of

1320
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:38,079
what's going on in the country you know

1321
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:40,079
to this very day

1322
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:41,119
there's some

1323
00:48:44,309 --> 00:48:42,559
heather cox for anyone who wanted to

1324
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:44,319
look yeah heather cox

1325
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:45,920
there's there's a great book that came

1326
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:48,960
out um it's short it's maybe 100 pages

1327
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,359
it's called kill all normies and it's

1328
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,280
basically about the yeah i know right

1329
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:55,280
it's extremely online but it's basically

1330
00:49:02,390 --> 00:48:59,680
about the rise of the alt-right um and

1331
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:02,400
on the particularly on the internet and

1332
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:04,000
um one of the

1333
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:05,280
and i'll say like it's it's worth

1334
00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:07,040
reading because it's short but one of

1335
00:49:11,109 --> 00:49:09,760
its theses it like this is one of those

1336
00:49:12,309 --> 00:49:11,119
things when i'm up in the middle of the

1337
00:49:14,230 --> 00:49:12,319
night

1338
00:49:15,829 --> 00:49:14,240
in the depths of existential angst i'm

1339
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:15,839
thinking about the fact that this book

1340
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:16,640
said

1341
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:18,160
that the right

1342
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:20,000
like the left won the culture war but

1343
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:21,920
the right one everything else and i

1344
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:24,400
think about that all the time

1345
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:26,240
um when it comes to

1346
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,240
you know the functioning of our

1347
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:30,079
institutions when it comes to our

1348
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:31,760
economic systems

1349
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:32,720
um

1350
00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:34,079
and

1351
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:34,880
that

1352
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:35,760
the

1353
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:39,680
think of is dark money by i think jane

1354
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:41,680
meyer who's on staff with the new york

1355
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,200
times and that's all about basically the

1356
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:45,119
cokes and where they have invested i

1357
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:47,200
mean what we're seeing now in sort of

1358
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:49,119
this epistemological crisis that we're

1359
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:51,040
all living through like the the seeds

1360
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:52,720
for this were planted a long long time

1361
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:55,440
ago like they were planted in heavily

1362
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:58,480
invested heavily uh invest investments

1363
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:00,880
in major academic institutions in the

1364
00:50:03,990 --> 00:50:02,319
economics department by the koch

1365
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:04,000
brothers to make sure that they were

1366
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:05,440
churning out like

1367
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:06,480
um

1368
00:50:10,390 --> 00:50:09,520
libertarian style thinking and economics

1369
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:10,400
they were

1370
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:12,960
showing up in sending federal judges on

1371
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:16,400
week-long legal training vacations to

1372
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:19,040
hawaii that are all funded by the koch

1373
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:21,040
uh the koch brothers like

1374
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:22,800
we are seeing sort of the inevitable and

1375
00:50:27,109 --> 00:50:25,040
logical conclusion of efforts that have

1376
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:27,119
been underway for a very very long time

1377
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:29,920
to sort of destabilize and undermine um

1378
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:31,280
the core

1379
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:34,480
structures that we have historically

1380
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:36,720
based our reality around

1381
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:38,640
it's absolutely true like we're living

1382
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:41,119
in a time when uh

1383
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:44,160
white property holding males

1384
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:45,119
are

1385
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:47,599
experiencing even maybe not consciously

1386
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:49,040
but they're experiencing their power

1387
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:51,359
diminish in all respects

1388
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:54,000
and there's always a natural reaction to

1389
00:50:58,470 --> 00:50:56,240
that and um you know i don't want to get

1390
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:58,480
into sort of like a communist type thing

1391
00:51:01,349 --> 00:51:00,000
right now but uh there's very

1392
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:01,359
interesting

1393
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:02,880
political uh

1394
00:51:08,230 --> 00:51:06,400
of papers written by uh vladimir lenin

1395
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:08,240
about his experiences in the soviet

1396
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:09,760
union and obviously i don't agree with

1397
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:10,960
anything he did

1398
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:13,200
but his writings are fascinating because

1399
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:15,520
he created the modern police state and

1400
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:18,000
he created the modern police state as a

1401
00:51:21,349 --> 00:51:19,680
reaction to what he termed the

1402
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:21,359
counter-revolution

1403
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:23,839
which is the intrinsic elements of

1404
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:26,480
society that hold it held all the power

1405
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:28,880
either intuitively or actively

1406
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:31,760
coalescing in response to a revolution

1407
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:34,319
and he argued in his papers that in his

1408
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:36,720
experience being in the revolution and

1409
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:38,400
then managing the

1410
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:40,079
the counter-revolution that resulted

1411
00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:41,760
that the counter-revolution is often

1412
00:51:44,710 --> 00:51:43,040
more powerful

1413
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,720
than the revolution

1414
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:46,079
and that's what we saw in the labor

1415
00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:47,599
movement in the united states and that's

1416
00:51:53,109 --> 00:51:50,800
uh they effectively um you know

1417
00:51:55,430 --> 00:51:53,119
destroyed the revolution and that's why

1418
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:55,440
in part why the labor uh union rates are

1419
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:57,119
so low in the state now because the fbi

1420
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:58,079
like

1421
00:52:02,549 --> 00:51:59,839
fascinating from a historic perspective

1422
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:02,559
deconstructed those movements in a you

1423
00:52:06,589 --> 00:52:05,040
know pretty incredible way if you want

1424
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:06,599
to just talk about it purely

1425
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:09,280
systematically like right uh you know

1426
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:10,800
yes and this this is what we live in

1427
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:13,200
where the government is now the enemy to

1428
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,680
this class of people

1429
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:17,520
the other thing though is that

1430
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:19,280
sometimes people on the left tend to

1431
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:22,319
just put everything

1432
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:23,280
on

1433
00:52:29,349 --> 00:52:26,880
themselves might be

1434
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:29,359
mismanaging things which then

1435
00:52:34,069 --> 00:52:30,160
um

1436
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:34,079
feeds into how the extreme right reacts

1437
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,200
so

1438
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:37,119
in nicholas goodrick clarke's book black

1439
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:38,480
sun

1440
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:40,559
which talks about um a perennial

1441
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:41,680
favorite

1442
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:45,440
yeah yep uh nazi essentialism and aryan

1443
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:47,760
cults yeah and also in this new book i'm

1444
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,760
actually reading called um the saucer

1445
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,839
and the swastika

1446
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:54,000
all right man you must get like quite

1447
00:52:57,829 --> 00:52:55,680
the looks at different coffee shops

1448
00:53:01,510 --> 00:52:57,839
right yeah it's not the subway

1449
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:01,520
true friend of the community right here

1450
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:02,640
um

1451
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:04,720
by sd tucker by the way this is a new

1452
00:53:09,589 --> 00:53:08,160
book um they both mentioned that um

1453
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:09,599
sometimes the

1454
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:11,359
political correctness

1455
00:53:15,589 --> 00:53:13,200
culture if you like

1456
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,599
it kind of ignores how

1457
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:17,760
white males might see things and it kind

1458
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:19,359
of just tries to force the an

1459
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:21,920
expectation on everyone that

1460
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:24,480
i i don't want to like get

1461
00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:26,720
like i mean i'm i would consider myself

1462
00:53:31,190 --> 00:53:28,720
sort of in the if you like politically

1463
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:31,200
correct spectrum but i can see why

1464
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:33,280
some people might find it off-putting or

1465
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:35,839
the way that it's presented might be

1466
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,400
in some cases going too far

1467
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:40,480
and if we're cognizant of that then

1468
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:41,760
there's going to be an inevitable

1469
00:53:44,069 --> 00:53:42,880
reaction

1470
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:44,079
mm-hmm

1471
00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:46,480
it's like also it feels like missing the

1472
00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:48,960
forest for the trees right like when i'm

1473
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,880
getting rounded up to be put into the

1474
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:52,559
leftist labor camp i'm not going to be

1475
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:54,319
too excited about picking my pronouns on

1476
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,119
my id tag right like like it kind of

1477
00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:59,280
like misses uh and there's a there's

1478
00:54:03,510 --> 00:54:01,040
another book called um canceling

1479
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:03,520
comedians when the world burns which is

1480
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:05,359
totally worth reading and it's it's

1481
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:06,640
louis it's sort of about like what

1482
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:07,839
you're saying

1483
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,390
real but perhaps

1484
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:17,270
um

1485
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:18,880
small matters

1486
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:21,520
in lieu of addressing like the larger

1487
00:54:33,109 --> 00:54:30,470
and like if we sort of consider this

1488
00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:33,119
within the context of the ufo community

1489
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:34,400
in a smaller

1490
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:38,000
way and there's this sort of like

1491
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:40,400
like i've experienced this sort of very

1492
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:42,720
uh on a minimal level but like

1493
00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:45,280
bringing in the scientific method and

1494
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:46,880
argumentation

1495
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:48,799
there is a

1496
00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:52,319
reaction that is to sort of like just

1497
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:53,599
like

1498
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:55,680
they could it's felt sort of

1499
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:58,160
intrinsically as a threat and it's

1500
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:00,640
rejected and uh

1501
00:55:04,549 --> 00:55:02,480
i i can't help but feel that there's a

1502
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:04,559
commonality there with uh what you were

1503
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:06,480
just saying louise about how

1504
00:55:10,549 --> 00:55:07,520
um

1505
00:55:12,870 --> 00:55:10,559
there's this like underlying instinctive

1506
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:12,880
sense uh that

1507
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:14,720
white males especially are feeling right

1508
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:17,359
now where they can sense

1509
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:19,520
that the power might decline from this

1510
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:20,799
new

1511
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:24,720
system of uh processing reality and so

1512
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:26,240
it's like there certainly are lessons

1513
00:55:31,109 --> 00:55:28,240
that can be learned from the bigger

1514
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:31,119
and taken into this community but uh i'm

1515
00:55:35,109 --> 00:55:33,040
quite sure and confident in saying that

1516
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:35,119
that hasn't really been effectively done

1517
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:36,640
up to this point if anything we're

1518
00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:37,599
seeing

1519
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:40,799
intentional fragmentation from the top

1520
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:43,119
of it um i'm curious what the rest of

1521
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:45,680
the panel thinks about like

1522
00:55:51,190 --> 00:55:48,960
elizondo his experiences like cia like

1523
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:51,200
he he should be

1524
00:55:54,150 --> 00:55:52,400
he should know

1525
00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:54,160
exactly what he's doing

1526
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:57,760
right he should understand very clearly

1527
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:00,880
how he is building a a cult of well not

1528
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:03,920
a cult but a uh a group of people

1529
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:07,760
devoted to his personality over

1530
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:10,720
verifiable information and he then like

1531
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:13,280
leans into sort of like

1532
00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:15,520
trying to get people fired up in the

1533
00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:17,040
worst ways possible like what do you

1534
00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:18,880
think this is it's not a bug it's a

1535
00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:20,960
feature well what what what's trying

1536
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:22,960
with that by design right and the

1537
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:24,799
question right is of course is this in

1538
00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:26,960
service to his like

1539
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:28,880
theoretical political career is it

1540
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:31,359
actual government disruption is it just

1541
00:56:34,470 --> 00:56:32,960
someone who has a lot of time on his

1542
00:56:36,789 --> 00:56:34,480
hands and likes around because

1543
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:36,799
he's a bully like who knows

1544
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:39,119
well he did in one interview say he came

1545
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,119
into this community to use his

1546
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:43,440
counterintelligence skill set

1547
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:46,319
which does include um

1548
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:48,960
you know property up and um

1549
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:50,640
kind of supporting a group you can see

1550
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:52,880
him on certain interviews uh his

1551
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:54,799
interview with ufo jesus is a good

1552
00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:57,200
example of this where he says

1553
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:59,200
people are watching you you're doing a

1554
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:01,040
good job keep it up

1555
00:57:06,470 --> 00:57:03,119
meanwhile um on the on the flip side of

1556
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:06,480
that grading blacklists which we did see

1557
00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:08,799
when he uh leaked his personal texts

1558
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:11,680
with lulumen is through another person

1559
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,640
now i know that those texts could be

1560
00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:16,400
interpreted in different ways uh

1561
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:20,079
specifically referencing the felon five

1562
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:22,319
whether that was one person or a group

1563
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:25,119
of five people is irrelevant he's making

1564
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:27,119
lists of people he was in the middle of

1565
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:29,440
a conversation with luke jimenez

1566
00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:31,920
and he just lists off you can read the

1567
00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:34,160
text they were leaked and it's

1568
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:36,000
it's out of nowhere and he says he's

1569
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:37,920
dealing with these people green street

1570
00:57:41,349 --> 00:57:39,280
greenwald

1571
00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:41,359
in five he's like why are you making

1572
00:57:45,349 --> 00:57:43,680
lists people it's pretty it's pretty

1573
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:45,359
clear i think it's blatant i think it's

1574
00:57:48,789 --> 00:57:47,200
out in the open

1575
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:48,799
the

1576
00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:59,839
is kind of clear you see it you see it

1577
00:58:03,030 --> 00:58:00,799
happening

1578
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:03,040
yeah i also um i i want to call

1579
00:58:06,870 --> 00:58:05,440
attention to something matt said here

1580
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,880
which is now the ball is in a bigger

1581
00:58:09,990 --> 00:58:08,400
court of public opinion

1582
00:58:11,910 --> 00:58:10,000
and i bring this up because you know

1583
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:11,920
elizondo

1584
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,520
in my opinion like has done important

1585
00:58:17,510 --> 00:58:15,119
work in this space like he did bring

1586
00:58:19,750 --> 00:58:17,520
some of these conversations forward but

1587
00:58:22,309 --> 00:58:19,760
now that the conversation has opened the

1588
00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:22,319
arena is much larger i mean we also may

1589
00:58:27,030 --> 00:58:24,640
just be watching tale as old as time

1590
00:58:29,270 --> 00:58:27,040
someone kind of

1591
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:29,280
furiously grapple to retain the same

1592
00:58:32,789 --> 00:58:30,880
level of power and relevance that

1593
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:32,799
they've had historically

1594
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:34,880
but now all of a sudden there's a chorus

1595
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:36,880
of singers not just him

1596
00:58:40,309 --> 00:58:38,559
um

1597
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:40,319
and it may just be a response to that

1598
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:42,720
but yeah i am

1599
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:43,760
i i

1600
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:46,480
you know even just said uh taking a step

1601
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:48,319
back one of the more troubling things i

1602
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:51,920
have seen in this community is that

1603
00:58:55,589 --> 00:58:53,839
for an organ for a

1604
00:58:57,510 --> 00:58:55,599
community that broadly is largely

1605
00:59:00,230 --> 00:58:57,520
mistrustful of the government it seems

1606
00:59:01,510 --> 00:59:00,240
all too readily willing to trust someone

1607
00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:01,520
who is

1608
00:59:06,069 --> 00:59:03,760
been transparent in his actions as a

1609
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,079
counterintelligence professional right

1610
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:08,640
yeah like like it just seems

1611
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:11,119
you know in like we can

1612
00:59:14,309 --> 00:59:12,799
we can do two things two things can be

1613
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:14,319
true at the same time we can say this

1614
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,559
person did important work and also this

1615
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:19,200
person is not above reproach or

1616
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:21,839
interrogation right um you know when it

1617
00:59:25,829 --> 00:59:24,240
comes to understanding motives and

1618
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,839
background

1619
00:59:29,670 --> 00:59:27,359
there there seems to be kind of a

1620
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:29,680
collective tendency within the community

1621
00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:30,400
to

1622
00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:32,640
put people up on pedestals or they mean

1623
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:34,480
decent or demonize them i feel like the

1624
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:36,240
community as a whole

1625
00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:39,280
almost exhibits the uh the symptoms of

1626
00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:41,440
borderline personality disorder it's a

1627
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:44,960
very schizophrenic response right like

1628
00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:47,280
it's very black or white yep either up

1629
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:49,359
here or down right like a pressure valve

1630
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:52,079
effect where people want some sort of

1631
00:59:55,510 --> 00:59:54,160
affirmation by a government affiliated

1632
00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:55,520
person and then when it's finally

1633
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:56,640
provided

1634
01:00:01,430 --> 00:59:59,280
they kind of throw out all the um

1635
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:01,440
suspicions that they should have

1636
01:00:05,910 --> 01:00:04,240
given the government's um

1637
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:05,920
you know it's a

1638
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:08,640
role as villain in the ufo lore

1639
01:00:11,589 --> 01:00:09,920
they kind of throw that out because

1640
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:11,599
finally they've got somebody who is

1641
01:00:16,549 --> 01:00:14,720
saying yes this is true well people

1642
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,559
don't like unanswered questions and they

1643
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:18,480
need an authority to seek out to get

1644
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:20,240
answers to the questions especially if

1645
01:00:23,349 --> 01:00:21,520
they're giving them the answers that

1646
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:23,359
they want and it seems like that's what

1647
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:33,750
well and there's a long history

1648
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:36,160
and it reminds me very much of the way

1649
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:39,359
that um religious thinking works right

1650
01:00:43,510 --> 01:00:40,400
where

1651
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:43,520
when there's an absence of uh verifiable

1652
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:45,200
evidence

1653
01:00:54,549 --> 01:00:50,400
ends up localizing within authority

1654
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,559
figures and that's like a very uh normal

1655
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:56,559
human reaction

1656
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:58,720
based in like a very long history of

1657
01:01:02,069 --> 01:01:01,280
small social group living

1658
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:02,079
and

1659
01:01:05,670 --> 01:01:03,520
the authority

1660
01:01:08,549 --> 01:01:05,680
the credibility is what comes first and

1661
01:01:10,309 --> 01:01:08,559
then you point to the authority figure

1662
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:10,319
when you want to validate your claims

1663
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:12,480
because it's like well you're saying

1664
01:01:16,230 --> 01:01:14,160
that they're lying

1665
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:16,240
oh you're really crossing the line with

1666
01:01:19,589 --> 01:01:18,240
that one right and that's what we've

1667
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:19,599
seen so many you know and you can go

1668
01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:22,880
back to catholicism with the virgin mary

1669
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:24,400
when you buy the new

1670
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:27,119
uh international version with updated

1671
01:01:33,510 --> 01:01:30,240
english uh you read it and the intro

1672
01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:33,520
says like and mary came to joseph and

1673
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:35,040
when she arrived she was already

1674
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:36,480
pregnant and when he asked what happened

1675
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:38,400
she said that she had not slept with

1676
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,319
anyone and therefore it must have been a

1677
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:42,319
miracle and it's like thanks for laying

1678
01:01:46,549 --> 01:01:44,240
it out so clearly like and so it's like

1679
01:01:48,309 --> 01:01:46,559
therefore you can never challenge

1680
01:01:50,789 --> 01:01:48,319
that person's statement

1681
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:50,799
right and then we see with uh mr

1682
01:01:58,230 --> 01:01:54,640
elizondo his pinned tweet is number one

1683
01:01:59,829 --> 01:01:58,240
i promise that i will never lie to you

1684
01:02:01,109 --> 01:01:59,839
well isn't that a funny statement

1685
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:01,119
because

1686
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:05,520
could be lying about the original

1687
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:06,400
statement

1688
01:02:11,430 --> 01:02:08,720
so and he knows that and he knows that

1689
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:11,440
that's the foundation of how you build a

1690
01:02:17,349 --> 01:02:15,359
personality driven uh community and so

1691
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:17,359
like i don't think he's all

1692
01:02:21,910 --> 01:02:19,520
bad i think that he saw things in these

1693
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:21,920
videos and stuff and they could just be

1694
01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:23,280
mundane things or they could be

1695
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:24,960
something remarkable but i don't think

1696
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,799
he knows and he i think it's pretty

1697
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:28,640
clear that he doesn't know but

1698
01:02:32,549 --> 01:02:30,400
i suspect that he was motivated by a

1699
01:02:34,710 --> 01:02:32,559
genuine belief that there is something

1700
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:34,720
going on and yet he is also employing

1701
01:02:38,230 --> 01:02:36,880
these things that are so troubling from

1702
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:38,240
any uh

1703
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:40,799
you know anthropological review of his

1704
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:42,960
actions it just is like red flag red

1705
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:45,359
flag red flag and he he does display

1706
01:02:51,109 --> 01:02:48,240
some strange reactions to like a very

1707
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:51,119
well known conspiratorial and paranoid

1708
01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:52,160
community

1709
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:55,200
you you enter this right yeah right you

1710
01:02:59,589 --> 01:02:57,599
enter this community of uh paranoid

1711
01:03:02,230 --> 01:02:59,599
people who distrust the intelligence

1712
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:02,240
community and the government and then

1713
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,480
react so negatively when

1714
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:06,400
they ask questions of you or like try to

1715
01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:07,920
hold you accountable i think it's a

1716
01:03:10,390 --> 01:03:09,280
strange reaction

1717
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:10,400
right

1718
01:03:12,230 --> 01:03:11,440
and

1719
01:03:13,829 --> 01:03:12,240
yeah

1720
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:13,839
that's exactly right nick like i

1721
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:15,520
couldn't agree with you more

1722
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:17,680
um it seems like an inevitability

1723
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:19,760
especially again conspiracy culture

1724
01:03:23,430 --> 01:03:21,680
people are going to ask questions and i

1725
01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:23,440
mean even just in full service to

1726
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:26,240
integrity and honesty and transparency

1727
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:28,000
um

1728
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,799
being willing to

1729
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:32,880
answer like second and third degree

1730
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:35,680
questions about these matters feels like

1731
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,559
it's being a good steward of the subject

1732
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,079
like it feels like

1733
01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:42,480
part of the responsibility baked into

1734
01:03:47,109 --> 01:03:44,480
being a member of this community is

1735
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:47,119
having the intellectual honesty

1736
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:49,359
and genuineness to answer those

1737
01:03:53,349 --> 01:03:52,480
questions and to understand the sort of

1738
01:03:56,069 --> 01:03:53,359
like

1739
01:03:58,710 --> 01:03:56,079
you know this is incumbent on people who

1740
01:04:01,670 --> 01:03:58,720
stand out as figures here and who are

1741
01:04:03,270 --> 01:04:01,680
the culture carriers for the community

1742
01:04:06,230 --> 01:04:03,280
like they have like i feel like no one

1743
01:04:08,069 --> 01:04:06,240
is free from that obligation um in terms

1744
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:08,079
of

1745
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:09,280
supporting

1746
01:04:14,150 --> 01:04:11,920
and responding to questions and to

1747
01:04:15,750 --> 01:04:14,160
suppose otherwise is just it's

1748
01:04:17,670 --> 01:04:15,760
intellectually disingenuous it's

1749
01:04:20,470 --> 01:04:17,680
controlling it creates for like a

1750
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:20,480
top-down command and control community

1751
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:21,760
um

1752
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:24,400
which is uh extremely disadvantageous

1753
01:04:30,549 --> 01:04:26,799
towards any sort of collaborative or

1754
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:30,559
interdisciplinary pursuit of the subject

1755
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:32,960
right and not only do we

1756
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:34,799
it's a known paranoid community but we

1757
01:04:41,109 --> 01:04:37,200
have the historical context of uh of bad

1758
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:41,119
actors like don't yeah exactly or like

1759
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:42,960
even even people like phil and brogno

1760
01:04:47,109 --> 01:04:43,920
who

1761
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:47,119
faked his credentials to get ahead and

1762
01:04:51,270 --> 01:04:49,200
he became a prolific author for a very

1763
01:04:53,750 --> 01:04:51,280
long time until he was found out and

1764
01:04:55,990 --> 01:04:53,760
that that only happened i think in

1765
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:56,000
maybe 2013 2014

1766
01:04:59,750 --> 01:04:57,760
but he'd been around for a long time so

1767
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:59,760
yeah

1768
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:01,520
i don't know what happened to trust no

1769
01:05:05,589 --> 01:05:02,400
one

1770
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:05,599
yeah or trust but verify right sure at

1771
01:05:10,950 --> 01:05:07,440
the very least

1772
01:05:13,029 --> 01:05:10,960
yeah and uh jim simothen semivan is a

1773
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:13,039
really good example of this sort of gray

1774
01:05:17,990 --> 01:05:15,280
area because he's not even

1775
01:05:20,789 --> 01:05:18,000
verified to have been

1776
01:05:22,230 --> 01:05:20,799
employed by the cia on his own i mean

1777
01:05:23,589 --> 01:05:22,240
and you know it's like oh it's linkedin

1778
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:23,599
so you write it yourself but even on

1779
01:05:29,589 --> 01:05:26,160
linkedin right historically he wrote

1780
01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:29,599
government account gao was his employer

1781
01:05:33,589 --> 01:05:31,280
he never wrote cia on there and you know

1782
01:05:36,069 --> 01:05:33,599
i'd be like oh well because you know cia

1783
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:36,079
then you hide it but that's not

1784
01:05:40,390 --> 01:05:38,640
necessarily consistent and he's been

1785
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:40,400
introduced in all these different ways

1786
01:05:42,789 --> 01:05:41,370
like on uh

1787
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:42,799
[Music]

1788
01:05:48,549 --> 01:05:46,319
on one uh interview it's like a director

1789
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:48,559
of counter intel former director of

1790
01:05:55,270 --> 01:05:51,839
counter intel a cia director and it's

1791
01:05:58,150 --> 01:05:55,280
like we don't even know if he is

1792
01:05:59,589 --> 01:05:58,160
has an employment history in the cia and

1793
01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:59,599
there's that interview where he talks

1794
01:06:03,510 --> 01:06:01,680
about his first engagement with tom

1795
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:03,520
delong do you guys remember this where

1796
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:06,559
he says he's like oh well you know and

1797
01:06:11,109 --> 01:06:08,640
he's so forward about it me and like

1798
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,119
this group of people sort of informally

1799
01:06:15,190 --> 01:06:13,200
follow this subject and uh when we

1800
01:06:17,190 --> 01:06:15,200
started hearing the stuff that mr delong

1801
01:06:19,349 --> 01:06:17,200
was saying we started to get a little

1802
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:19,359
bit concerned that maybe there were some

1803
01:06:23,349 --> 01:06:21,520
leaks coming out so i got in touch with

1804
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:23,359
him and i started to ask him questions

1805
01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:25,440
and pretty quickly i found out that uh

1806
01:06:29,829 --> 01:06:28,000
there wasn't any leak happening but um

1807
01:06:32,230 --> 01:06:29,839
you know tom was uh just hitting the

1808
01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:32,240
nail right on the head and uh he's such

1809
01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:34,480
a smart guy you know and he starts like

1810
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:36,880
leaning into like praising tom and it's

1811
01:06:39,670 --> 01:06:37,839
like

1812
01:06:41,430 --> 01:06:39,680
the fact that he would feel comfortable

1813
01:06:43,589 --> 01:06:41,440
to spell it out like that like it's the

1814
01:06:45,270 --> 01:06:43,599
most conspiratorial thing i can imagine

1815
01:06:46,630 --> 01:06:45,280
he's like oh a group of government guys

1816
01:06:48,630 --> 01:06:46,640
are sitting together and we're like

1817
01:06:50,789 --> 01:06:48,640
looking at people talking about ufos and

1818
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:50,799
we lean into that when we think there

1819
01:06:55,829 --> 01:06:53,039
might be leaks it's like

1820
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:55,839
he's saying the worst nightmare of this

1821
01:07:00,230 --> 01:06:57,920
community and then he becomes involved

1822
01:07:02,150 --> 01:07:00,240
with tpsa like i don't even understand

1823
01:07:03,349 --> 01:07:02,160
what's happening half the time

1824
01:07:05,109 --> 01:07:03,359
no

1825
01:07:06,789 --> 01:07:05,119
it's hard to keep up with

1826
01:07:08,549 --> 01:07:06,799
yeah but i mean there's isn't there just

1827
01:07:10,789 --> 01:07:08,559
a general policy too that these

1828
01:07:12,309 --> 01:07:10,799
institutions don't confirm employment

1829
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:12,319
like you can say you were an employee of

1830
01:07:17,829 --> 01:07:14,559
them but i don't think there's unless

1831
01:07:20,150 --> 01:07:17,839
you are falsely claiming to represent

1832
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:20,160
them in some capacity you can certainly

1833
01:07:24,950 --> 01:07:21,760
say that you've worked at these places

1834
01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:24,960
and the cia and fbi won't verify it and

1835
01:07:29,109 --> 01:07:27,359
you can buy the medallion for the cia so

1836
01:07:30,630 --> 01:07:29,119
even though ramirez showed it we don't

1837
01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:30,640
know if he just could have bought it i

1838
01:07:33,510 --> 01:07:31,920
mean there's i don't think that he's

1839
01:07:35,349 --> 01:07:33,520
lying about it but he could be and we

1840
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:35,359
wouldn't know but and that's what brewer

1841
01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:36,960
is doing now actually with some of them

1842
01:07:41,109 --> 01:07:38,880
right he's uh he put in a freedom of

1843
01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:41,119
information access requests to secure

1844
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:42,960
the internal records that would show

1845
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:45,359
whether some of them actually was ever

1846
01:07:48,309 --> 01:07:47,280
on the payroll regardless of what he was

1847
01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:48,319
doing there

1848
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:49,680
we'll find out eventually

1849
01:07:55,270 --> 01:07:52,240
isn't it a felony to claim that europe

1850
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:55,280
you are a were a member of a um

1851
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:58,079
federal agency or department

1852
01:08:00,950 --> 01:07:59,520
i hope so

1853
01:08:02,549 --> 01:08:00,960
yeah

1854
01:08:03,990 --> 01:08:02,559
because you know you know who would know

1855
01:08:05,190 --> 01:08:04,000
the internet would know

1856
01:08:07,270 --> 01:08:05,200
yeah

1857
01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:07,280
hopefully i hope that government knows

1858
01:08:15,029 --> 01:08:11,029
you know i'm just thinking about bob

1859
01:08:16,789 --> 01:08:15,039
lazar because um amy collins um

1860
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:16,799
told me something interesting once which

1861
01:08:21,030 --> 01:08:18,960
was that the reason that he said that he

1862
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:21,040
was a member of the department of

1863
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:22,799
naval intelligence is because there is

1864
01:08:26,070 --> 01:08:24,480
no such department

1865
01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:26,080
so that he could um

1866
01:08:32,789 --> 01:08:31,110
you know like uh

1867
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,799
make it seem like um

1868
01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:34,640
he was actually a member of

1869
01:08:37,990 --> 01:08:35,839
or he was

1870
01:08:39,749 --> 01:08:38,000
paid by the office of naval intelligence

1871
01:08:41,590 --> 01:08:39,759
without actually saying office of naval

1872
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:41,600
intelligence because by saying

1873
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:42,719
department

1874
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:46,400
he's technically not committing a felony

1875
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:49,279
he's still tapping into the

1876
01:08:53,829 --> 01:08:51,359
kind of the institutional

1877
01:08:55,349 --> 01:08:53,839
uh you know legitimacy and i suppose the

1878
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:55,359
lack of the paper trail just kind of

1879
01:09:00,550 --> 01:08:58,960
proves that your fuels the conspiracy

1880
01:09:02,550 --> 01:09:00,560
it's interesting because in another

1881
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:02,560
interview with lua uh louis alexander he

1882
01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:05,199
said while he was working on atip

1883
01:09:09,510 --> 01:09:07,199
whatever that may have been um he

1884
01:09:11,189 --> 01:09:09,520
deliberately made all of their paperwork

1885
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:11,199
unfoiable

1886
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:13,040
which i thought that was a really wild

1887
01:09:17,590 --> 01:09:14,960
thing to say especially as a a

1888
01:09:20,070 --> 01:09:17,600
transparency advocate

1889
01:09:23,269 --> 01:09:20,080
but but then and and someone who quit

1890
01:09:25,349 --> 01:09:23,279
out of protest because of obfuscation

1891
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:25,359
and lack of transparency

1892
01:09:28,630 --> 01:09:27,359
why did he do that he didn't go into why

1893
01:09:30,870 --> 01:09:28,640
he did that or

1894
01:09:32,950 --> 01:09:30,880
how or if that's even possible that was

1895
01:09:35,110 --> 01:09:32,960
a claim of his that i thought was kind

1896
01:09:37,430 --> 01:09:35,120
of kind of concerning

1897
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:37,440
i haven't heard that one but my

1898
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:40,560
most negative uh cynical sides

1899
01:09:45,430 --> 01:09:43,440
has a you know instant thought that

1900
01:09:47,669 --> 01:09:45,440
that would be a very easy way of saying

1901
01:09:48,470 --> 01:09:47,679
that you can't find it right like it's

1902
01:09:57,910 --> 01:09:48,480
like

1903
01:10:01,990 --> 01:09:57,920
any point in speculating and it just

1904
01:10:04,070 --> 01:10:02,000
adds layer on layer of obfuscation and

1905
01:10:05,669 --> 01:10:04,080
confusion we don't know exactly what's

1906
01:10:07,910 --> 01:10:05,679
true what's false

1907
01:10:09,830 --> 01:10:07,920
but if you question that he's telling

1908
01:10:11,910 --> 01:10:09,840
the truth like you're

1909
01:10:14,470 --> 01:10:11,920
evicted from the community

1910
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:14,480
even though like you know trying to get

1911
01:10:18,870 --> 01:10:17,199
at those like details is what would

1912
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:18,880
conceptually move the conversation

1913
01:10:22,310 --> 01:10:20,239
forward

1914
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:22,320
and it's uh it's troubling because i see

1915
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:24,640
this polarization occurring right like

1916
01:10:28,550 --> 01:10:26,159
like with um

1917
01:10:30,149 --> 01:10:28,560
with lou jimenez being like treated the

1918
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:30,159
way he has been with the amount that

1919
01:10:35,510 --> 01:10:33,360
he's put into this community it uh

1920
01:10:37,830 --> 01:10:35,520
really makes me feel

1921
01:10:43,590 --> 01:10:37,840
concerned about the

1922
01:10:48,790 --> 01:10:46,790
it's like where are we headed right

1923
01:10:51,750 --> 01:10:48,800
question

1924
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:51,760
it's like i like i feel uh concerned

1925
01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:54,960
about what i say or don't say on ufo

1926
01:10:59,270 --> 01:10:57,840
twitter all the time i frequently resist

1927
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:59,280
commenting like i write something out

1928
01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:01,199
and i'm like it's all right

1929
01:11:06,550 --> 01:11:03,520
it has a chilling effect yeah yeah it

1930
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:06,560
has a chilling effect where um you know

1931
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:08,800
it's uh what is it like every day

1932
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:10,560
twitter has a main character and the

1933
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:15,590
that's good

1934
01:11:19,669 --> 01:11:17,600
but like it absolutely has a chilling

1935
01:11:21,189 --> 01:11:19,679
effect you know i mean i i'd be lying if

1936
01:11:22,790 --> 01:11:21,199
i said oh like is this something i

1937
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:22,800
even want to be touching at this point

1938
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:24,800
because i don't want the backlash on my

1939
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:26,400
personal or professional life i don't

1940
01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:29,040
want to be in the firing line because a

1941
01:11:32,229 --> 01:11:30,880
die hard

1942
01:11:33,910 --> 01:11:32,239
whoever

1943
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,920
is uh

1944
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:35,520
thinks that i was totally out of line

1945
01:11:39,669 --> 01:11:37,600
and one thing that i said one time right

1946
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:39,679
this is always sort of the issue of the

1947
01:11:42,550 --> 01:11:40,719
internet

1948
01:11:44,709 --> 01:11:42,560
uh

1949
01:11:47,270 --> 01:11:44,719
the internet mob in general

1950
01:11:49,030 --> 01:11:47,280
but i think this community particularly

1951
01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:49,040
gets so whipped up

1952
01:11:53,990 --> 01:11:51,120
constantly over

1953
01:11:56,310 --> 01:11:54,000
perceived and real transgressions that

1954
01:11:59,510 --> 01:11:56,320
it um also

1955
01:12:01,270 --> 01:11:59,520
serves to quiet discussion and discourse

1956
01:12:03,430 --> 01:12:01,280
and i mean that's like let's be real

1957
01:12:05,830 --> 01:12:03,440
that's by design you know like that's

1958
01:12:09,669 --> 01:12:05,840
deliberate like in creating that

1959
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:09,679
chilling effect you know also decreases

1960
01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:11,520
cross-disciplinary collaboration and

1961
01:12:17,669 --> 01:12:14,719
communication it decreases like

1962
01:12:19,350 --> 01:12:17,679
uh critical interrogation of subjects it

1963
01:12:21,669 --> 01:12:19,360
makes people afraid to speak out and

1964
01:12:24,870 --> 01:12:21,679
connect with each other and i mean the

1965
01:12:26,950 --> 01:12:24,880
way you keep i mean again this is i feel

1966
01:12:28,390 --> 01:12:26,960
like so i feel so conspiratorial when i

1967
01:12:30,550 --> 01:12:28,400
say things like this but like this is

1968
01:12:32,630 --> 01:12:30,560
how you keep a population isolated and

1969
01:12:34,390 --> 01:12:32,640
alienated and detached from themselves

1970
01:12:37,110 --> 01:12:34,400
and from each other and it's a way you

1971
01:12:38,790 --> 01:12:37,120
keep them very well controlled

1972
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:38,800
yeah it's kind of a shame that we have

1973
01:12:43,669 --> 01:12:41,040
to walk or walk on eggshells around a

1974
01:12:44,790 --> 01:12:43,679
group of self-proclaimed truth-seekers

1975
01:12:47,750 --> 01:12:44,800
right

1976
01:12:49,590 --> 01:12:47,760
but i suppose we are really divided and

1977
01:12:51,510 --> 01:12:49,600
easily conquerable

1978
01:12:55,030 --> 01:12:51,520
i mean when we see these sort of

1979
01:12:57,030 --> 01:12:55,040
unspoken rules of ufo twitter um

1980
01:13:00,149 --> 01:12:57,040
unevenly distributed across its

1981
01:13:04,870 --> 01:13:02,470
we we certainly see people held to very

1982
01:13:07,189 --> 01:13:04,880
different standards of behavior

1983
01:13:08,709 --> 01:13:07,199
both collectively and individually

1984
01:13:10,790 --> 01:13:08,719
and we see

1985
01:13:12,630 --> 01:13:10,800
collective and individual responses that

1986
01:13:15,110 --> 01:13:12,640
are completely disproportionate to

1987
01:13:16,550 --> 01:13:15,120
perceived or real transgressions you

1988
01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:16,560
know like one of the one of the

1989
01:13:20,470 --> 01:13:18,960
arguments you hear over and over is like

1990
01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:20,480
oh people are trying to make money

1991
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:22,719
there's grifters in this community but

1992
01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:24,640
grifters and money making is completely

1993
01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:27,040
tolerated for some people and for other

1994
01:13:30,950 --> 01:13:29,120
people it becomes this third rail that

1995
01:13:33,189 --> 01:13:30,960
you know you have somehow disrupted the

1996
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:33,199
sanctity of ufos if you're trying to

1997
01:13:37,590 --> 01:13:35,920
like offset the cost of running a stream

1998
01:13:40,070 --> 01:13:37,600
right um

1999
01:13:42,470 --> 01:13:40,080
and it's it's such a pity i think to see

2000
01:13:43,350 --> 01:13:42,480
these conversations or these

2001
01:13:46,630 --> 01:13:43,360
um

2002
01:13:49,430 --> 01:13:46,640
conflicts degrade into that uh

2003
01:13:51,910 --> 01:13:49,440
particularly candidly like when we live

2004
01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:51,920
in a moment that is deeply financially

2005
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:54,000
precarious for almost everybody like it

2006
01:13:57,189 --> 01:13:54,960
seems

2007
01:13:59,990 --> 01:13:57,199
really kind of ruinous and short-sighted

2008
01:14:02,390 --> 01:14:00,000
to be upset that someone dane try to

2009
01:14:04,790 --> 01:14:02,400
offset the costs of running a stream or

2010
01:14:06,229 --> 01:14:04,800
hosting a show um because it's still

2011
01:14:07,830 --> 01:14:06,239
labor and people deserve to be

2012
01:14:09,750 --> 01:14:07,840
compensated for it especially if they're

2013
01:14:12,390 --> 01:14:09,760
providing a service to a community this

2014
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:12,400
isn't about lujan as an ucr this is just

2015
01:14:17,510 --> 01:14:14,400
a general assessment right

2016
01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:17,520
and that if the community is so pure and

2017
01:14:21,830 --> 01:14:19,760
sanctified in its intentions to not seek

2018
01:14:23,830 --> 01:14:21,840
money then that standard should be very

2019
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:23,840
evenly applied but the reality is that

2020
01:14:28,229 --> 01:14:26,640
it's not right we are while the majority

2021
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:28,239
of us are living in a country where

2022
01:14:31,590 --> 01:14:30,000
every basic survival need has been come

2023
01:14:34,229 --> 01:14:31,600
modified so

2024
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:34,239
yeah we do need to make money um

2025
01:14:38,550 --> 01:14:35,840
but when i see people complaining about

2026
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:38,560
things like super chats on youtube

2027
01:14:42,790 --> 01:14:40,640
um it really makes me laugh because you

2028
01:14:45,030 --> 01:14:42,800
look at the price for some of these

2029
01:14:46,390 --> 01:14:45,040
video conferences i think no actually i

2030
01:14:48,950 --> 01:14:46,400
think that nolan one turned out to be

2031
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:48,960
pretty cheap that's coming up um

2032
01:14:53,110 --> 01:14:50,560
pretty soon but a lot of them you know

2033
01:14:56,070 --> 01:14:53,120
they're really high up there um

2034
01:14:58,390 --> 01:14:56,080
i think that pales in comparison like

2035
01:15:00,390 --> 01:14:58,400
maintaining even like um

2036
01:15:02,870 --> 01:15:00,400
the program that we use stream yard is a

2037
01:15:04,709 --> 01:15:02,880
monthly it's like 20 bucks a month yeah

2038
01:15:06,149 --> 01:15:04,719
i mean like doing this cost like i do

2039
01:15:07,510 --> 01:15:06,159
this out of the kindness of my heart and

2040
01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:07,520
because right now i'm an unemployed

2041
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:10,000
degenerate but like you know it's not

2042
01:15:14,229 --> 01:15:12,320
free and it's it's not free in time it's

2043
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:14,239
not free in resources

2044
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:15,440
um

2045
01:15:20,149 --> 01:15:18,480
and uh you know i'm a huge personal

2046
01:15:23,990 --> 01:15:20,159
proponent in the sort of internet

2047
01:15:26,070 --> 01:15:24,000
version 1.0 thesis of the internet is an

2048
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:26,080
extraordinary way to connect with people

2049
01:15:29,830 --> 01:15:28,320
about arcane and obscure topics and that

2050
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,840
you can build your these remarkable

2051
01:15:34,630 --> 01:15:31,600
little dark forest communities around

2052
01:15:36,070 --> 01:15:34,640
these subjects um and it's

2053
01:15:37,830 --> 01:15:36,080
you know it's heartening to see the

2054
01:15:39,510 --> 01:15:37,840
internet kind of returning to that in

2055
01:15:41,350 --> 01:15:39,520
many respects because i think people are

2056
01:15:43,030 --> 01:15:41,360
becoming increasingly disenchanted with

2057
01:15:44,950 --> 01:15:43,040
these aggregation platforms like

2058
01:15:45,830 --> 01:15:44,960
facebook or reddit or instagram or

2059
01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:45,840
whatever

2060
01:15:50,390 --> 01:15:46,719
um

2061
01:15:52,470 --> 01:15:50,400
but it's not easy to run a standalone

2062
01:15:55,430 --> 01:15:52,480
production or media platform whether

2063
01:15:57,750 --> 01:15:55,440
it's a live stream or a blog

2064
01:15:59,750 --> 01:15:57,760
and i i think the the best we can do

2065
01:16:01,990 --> 01:15:59,760
collectively as a community

2066
01:16:04,310 --> 01:16:02,000
is encourage people to continue doing

2067
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:04,320
this and to facilitate it the best way

2068
01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:06,400
we can whether for our own efforts or

2069
01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:07,840
you know throwing five bucks at

2070
01:16:12,390 --> 01:16:10,080
different patreons or coffees or

2071
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:12,400
whatever or super chats just to ensure

2072
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,600
that these dialogues continue right

2073
01:16:20,229 --> 01:16:17,440
yeah well and uh

2074
01:16:22,470 --> 01:16:20,239
i'm seeing stuff in the chat uh being

2075
01:16:24,470 --> 01:16:22,480
kind of critical of lou and i think you

2076
01:16:27,990 --> 01:16:24,480
know it's fair because he did he has

2077
01:16:29,110 --> 01:16:28,000
been uh reacting uh very intensely but i

2078
01:16:30,950 --> 01:16:29,120
think it's

2079
01:16:33,750 --> 01:16:30,960
symptomatic of the bigger

2080
01:16:35,750 --> 01:16:33,760
problem we have like in it it reminds me

2081
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:35,760
so much of those stories from like the

2082
01:16:40,790 --> 01:16:37,920
american civil war like you know brother

2083
01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:40,800
fighting brother where people who

2084
01:16:46,550 --> 01:16:43,760
like really like love each other

2085
01:16:47,669 --> 01:16:46,560
personally and enjoy spending time

2086
01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:47,679
together

2087
01:16:50,149 --> 01:16:48,480
when

2088
01:16:52,390 --> 01:16:50,159
a specific

2089
01:16:53,830 --> 01:16:52,400
political subject comes up or whatever a

2090
01:16:56,630 --> 01:16:53,840
cultural issue

2091
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:56,640
suddenly you want to kill each other

2092
01:17:04,870 --> 01:17:02,229
when i posted like about four months ago

2093
01:17:07,750 --> 01:17:04,880
uh that uh series of tweets being

2094
01:17:11,350 --> 01:17:07,760
critical of a statement that uh mr

2095
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:11,360
elizondo said i had

2096
01:17:15,189 --> 01:17:13,280
truth seekers who i have good

2097
01:17:17,910 --> 01:17:15,199
relationships with have talked many

2098
01:17:20,630 --> 01:17:17,920
times with over the last year coming out

2099
01:17:22,709 --> 01:17:20,640
and being very uh mean to me on a

2100
01:17:25,350 --> 01:17:22,719
personal level saying nothing about the

2101
01:17:28,310 --> 01:17:25,360
actual content of what i wrote and for

2102
01:17:30,390 --> 01:17:28,320
each one of them i had to

2103
01:17:33,110 --> 01:17:30,400
one on one be like hey

2104
01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:33,120
hey remember all those nice chats we had

2105
01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:35,040
me and you you know who i am like come

2106
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:37,360
on guys like what's going on like you

2107
01:17:40,709 --> 01:17:39,840
know that i'm not just messing around

2108
01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:40,719
i'm

2109
01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:43,360
getting in and then that each one when i

2110
01:17:47,030 --> 01:17:45,760
did that they'd be like oh yeah okay but

2111
01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:47,040
i had to like

2112
01:17:51,270 --> 01:17:49,920
remind them and it's like it's so scary

2113
01:17:53,669 --> 01:17:51,280
to me because

2114
01:17:56,149 --> 01:17:53,679
like lou jimenez the way he's been

2115
01:17:57,350 --> 01:17:56,159
reacting it is a feedback loop and it is

2116
01:17:59,669 --> 01:17:57,360
such a

2117
01:18:01,590 --> 01:17:59,679
it's so clear what is happening because

2118
01:18:03,350 --> 01:18:01,600
it is somebody who has put so much in

2119
01:18:05,430 --> 01:18:03,360
and then he's getting rejected by the

2120
01:18:08,229 --> 01:18:05,440
community because of perceived

2121
01:18:10,709 --> 01:18:08,239
violations of the social order even

2122
01:18:13,350 --> 01:18:10,719
though he's asking questions and trying

2123
01:18:15,910 --> 01:18:13,360
to get at answers that would push the

2124
01:18:18,149 --> 01:18:15,920
subject forward if they were resolved

2125
01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:18,159
and so he's reacting to that rejection

2126
01:18:23,110 --> 01:18:20,640
he gets more upset because indeed then

2127
01:18:24,950 --> 01:18:23,120
the anger intensifies and then at the

2128
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:24,960
end of it people are just shouting

2129
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:27,520
traitor traitor traitor traitor adam

2130
01:18:32,550 --> 01:18:30,000
and it's like it's such a perfect

2131
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:32,560
encapsulation of the bigger cultural

2132
01:18:36,790 --> 01:18:34,800
moment that we're in is it not

2133
01:18:38,709 --> 01:18:36,800
yeah i am so i pulled up rich's comment

2134
01:18:40,390 --> 01:18:38,719
here quote i'll still watch ucr but i

2135
01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:40,400
hope he learns to not let his emotions

2136
01:18:43,430 --> 01:18:42,000
get the best of him

2137
01:18:44,950 --> 01:18:43,440
and i bring this up

2138
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:44,960
um

2139
01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:52,080
there are emotions on all sides here

2140
01:18:54,630 --> 01:18:52,960
and

2141
01:18:56,630 --> 01:18:54,640
including anger i'd like to remind

2142
01:18:59,030 --> 01:18:56,640
people particularly men that anger is an

2143
01:19:00,390 --> 01:18:59,040
emotion um and it shows up very

2144
01:19:02,229 --> 01:19:00,400
frequently in male discourse

2145
01:19:03,189 --> 01:19:02,239
particularly online

2146
01:19:08,950 --> 01:19:03,199
um

2147
01:19:13,110 --> 01:19:10,709
none of us are free from emotional

2148
01:19:15,110 --> 01:19:13,120
intensity particularly when we are

2149
01:19:16,709 --> 01:19:15,120
working particularly in discussion

2150
01:19:17,669 --> 01:19:16,719
around what we would consider our life's

2151
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:17,679
work

2152
01:19:23,430 --> 01:19:20,400
um and this is you know i i think his

2153
01:19:26,550 --> 01:19:23,440
response well i have personal feelings

2154
01:19:28,950 --> 01:19:26,560
about it um i think i i feel a deep

2155
01:19:31,830 --> 01:19:28,960
sense of compassion for

2156
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,840
his response because i think that

2157
01:19:35,510 --> 01:19:33,360
his

2158
01:19:38,470 --> 01:19:35,520
it seems like a very human response to

2159
01:19:42,550 --> 01:19:38,480
something um this com community casting

2160
01:19:44,709 --> 01:19:42,560
out or casting off um and people being

2161
01:19:47,110 --> 01:19:44,719
extraordinarily cruel to him like what

2162
01:19:49,110 --> 01:19:47,120
is what is the actual like how much

2163
01:19:51,110 --> 01:19:49,120
cruelty is an individual expected to

2164
01:19:53,110 --> 01:19:51,120
endure before

2165
01:19:55,990 --> 01:19:53,120
they're allowed to lash back out or

2166
01:19:58,950 --> 01:19:56,000
respond in a quote-unquote emotional way

2167
01:20:01,110 --> 01:19:58,960
like is it is it uh six months of

2168
01:20:02,870 --> 01:20:01,120
harassment is it a week of harassment is

2169
01:20:04,870 --> 01:20:02,880
it having to move it out of an apartment

2170
01:20:06,390 --> 01:20:04,880
because they've been doxed so many times

2171
01:20:08,229 --> 01:20:06,400
is it after they've lost their job like

2172
01:20:10,149 --> 01:20:08,239
what's the actual threshold here like

2173
01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:10,159
how much suffering does a person have to

2174
01:20:13,430 --> 01:20:11,840
endure at the hands of a community that

2175
01:20:15,030 --> 01:20:13,440
they have invested extraordinary amounts

2176
01:20:16,709 --> 01:20:15,040
of time and energy into

2177
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:16,719
before it is considered a legitimate

2178
01:20:19,750 --> 01:20:18,239
response

2179
01:20:22,070 --> 01:20:19,760
i've talked to

2180
01:20:24,629 --> 01:20:22,080
several people that that describe their

2181
01:20:26,550 --> 01:20:24,639
like hatred of lou because he stabbed

2182
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:26,560
elizondo in the back these are their

2183
01:20:30,070 --> 01:20:28,159
words he

2184
01:20:32,229 --> 01:20:30,080
well you saw all i mean they were bots

2185
01:20:34,229 --> 01:20:32,239
but that that word traitor like that's

2186
01:20:36,149 --> 01:20:34,239
clearly an emotional response and i i

2187
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:36,159
think at least some of it does come from

2188
01:20:40,070 --> 01:20:37,600
what i was talking about earlier these

2189
01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:40,080
parasocial relationships and parasitic

2190
01:20:43,030 --> 01:20:41,040
rails

2191
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:43,040
which they're calling for they're saying

2192
01:20:47,430 --> 01:20:45,360
they're calling it a betrayal but

2193
01:20:49,110 --> 01:20:47,440
what actually happened there

2194
01:20:51,910 --> 01:20:49,120
right and like what's the responsibility

2195
01:20:52,709 --> 01:20:51,920
of the creator to the audience right

2196
01:20:55,990 --> 01:20:52,719
and

2197
01:22:29,669 --> 01:20:57,110
i

2198
01:22:31,350 --> 01:22:29,679
just want to be clear about that

2199
01:22:32,229 --> 01:22:31,360
yeah here's like we're really talking

2200
01:22:33,430 --> 01:22:32,239
about

2201
01:22:35,270 --> 01:22:33,440
um

2202
01:22:37,510 --> 01:22:35,280
and i've i've talked with a couple close

2203
01:22:39,189 --> 01:22:37,520
friends about this in the community like

2204
01:22:41,510 --> 01:22:39,199
to me there's like two distinct things

2205
01:22:43,110 --> 01:22:41,520
going on right like there's

2206
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:43,120
a sort of like everyone getting whipped

2207
01:22:46,870 --> 01:22:44,880
up about lou and everything going on

2208
01:22:49,350 --> 01:22:46,880
there but then there is

2209
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:49,360
lumines is still a human being

2210
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:52,480
and they're like this is like look like

2211
01:22:57,430 --> 01:22:54,560
he's not like burning down orphanages

2212
01:22:59,110 --> 01:22:57,440
and i think uh i mean candidly speaking

2213
01:23:00,950 --> 01:22:59,120
um all of us have lived through

2214
01:23:02,310 --> 01:23:00,960
extraordinarily traumatic couple years

2215
01:23:03,590 --> 01:23:02,320
here we're all under extraordinary

2216
01:23:06,629 --> 01:23:03,600
amounts of stress no matter what your

2217
01:23:08,390 --> 01:23:06,639
station in life is right now

2218
01:23:10,790 --> 01:23:08,400
and i

2219
01:23:12,229 --> 01:23:10,800
think that um

2220
01:23:15,669 --> 01:23:12,239
it is incumbent on members of the

2221
01:23:16,950 --> 01:23:15,679
community particularly figures who

2222
01:23:20,629 --> 01:23:16,960
have some degree of leadership or

2223
01:23:22,709 --> 01:23:20,639
culture carrying to set the example of

2224
01:23:23,590 --> 01:23:22,719
acting in a compassionate and respectful

2225
01:23:26,229 --> 01:23:23,600
way

2226
01:23:28,870 --> 01:23:26,239
towards him full stop um because right

2227
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:28,880
now i think he's someone who needs uh an

2228
01:23:33,350 --> 01:23:30,159
exceptional

2229
01:23:35,350 --> 01:23:33,360
amount of compassion and support uh not

2230
01:23:37,189 --> 01:23:35,360
agreement i i want to be very clear here

2231
01:23:39,830 --> 01:23:37,199
i'm not saying we have to

2232
01:23:42,070 --> 01:23:39,840
wholesale buy into his behavior or

2233
01:23:43,830 --> 01:23:42,080
support it or defend it but i do think

2234
01:23:45,830 --> 01:23:43,840
that it's incumbent on us as human

2235
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:45,840
beings to be present for another

2236
01:23:51,350 --> 01:23:47,679
community member who is very clearly

2237
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:51,360
struggling and going through some stuff

2238
01:23:54,870 --> 01:23:52,639
i think it's

2239
01:23:57,510 --> 01:23:54,880
you kind of hit out there that agreement

2240
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:57,520
thing that that seems to be kind of

2241
01:24:02,310 --> 01:24:00,880
uh held in front like um

2242
01:24:05,110 --> 01:24:02,320
i'm kind of losing my train of thought

2243
01:24:06,790 --> 01:24:05,120
here sorry uh

2244
01:24:08,950 --> 01:24:06,800
like being civil with people you

2245
01:24:11,110 --> 01:24:08,960
disagree with shouldn't be especially in

2246
01:24:13,669 --> 01:24:11,120
this field i don't think it should be

2247
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:13,679
such a barrier and it seems to be why do

2248
01:24:18,550 --> 01:24:16,080
you guys think that is

2249
01:24:21,510 --> 01:24:18,560
well i can draw on my own historical

2250
01:24:24,709 --> 01:24:21,520
experience like um not in the ufo

2251
01:24:25,830 --> 01:24:24,719
subject but politically like i was a lot

2252
01:24:28,070 --> 01:24:25,840
more

2253
01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:28,080
strongly uh like

2254
01:24:31,590 --> 01:24:30,400
on the like i mean i'm still a uh

2255
01:24:34,629 --> 01:24:31,600
like

2256
01:24:37,270 --> 01:24:34,639
social democrat um but historically i

2257
01:24:39,030 --> 01:24:37,280
was constantly aggressively arguing with

2258
01:24:41,350 --> 01:24:39,040
people about how

2259
01:24:42,870 --> 01:24:41,360
like wrong they are uh compared to what

2260
01:24:44,709 --> 01:24:42,880
i think and

2261
01:24:47,910 --> 01:24:44,719
as i

2262
01:24:49,510 --> 01:24:47,920
i mean and this is just stuff that is so

2263
01:24:50,550 --> 01:24:49,520
it's hard for people

2264
01:24:52,870 --> 01:24:50,560
i'm trying to think of how to say

2265
01:24:55,990 --> 01:24:52,880
because it's hard for people sometimes

2266
01:24:58,310 --> 01:24:56,000
to fully appreciate how circumstance

2267
01:25:00,070 --> 01:24:58,320
plays such a massive role in your

2268
01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:00,080
opinion not just your opinions but how

2269
01:25:05,590 --> 01:25:04,000
you experience and express them so like

2270
01:25:07,510 --> 01:25:05,600
as i

2271
01:25:10,709 --> 01:25:07,520
got into a long-term relationship and

2272
01:25:13,590 --> 01:25:10,719
got married started my own business

2273
01:25:17,030 --> 01:25:13,600
you know got a house and stuff like my

2274
01:25:19,590 --> 01:25:17,040
views pacified as these sort of

2275
01:25:21,830 --> 01:25:19,600
stability systems came into play i had

2276
01:25:23,750 --> 01:25:21,840
uh you know other things happening and

2277
01:25:26,070 --> 01:25:23,760
you know you can go into the most basic

2278
01:25:28,629 --> 01:25:26,080
experiments where you put a rat into a

2279
01:25:30,629 --> 01:25:28,639
very small cage with no toys and a

2280
01:25:32,870 --> 01:25:30,639
limitless supply of cocaine and it's

2281
01:25:34,390 --> 01:25:32,880
high all day you put the same well not

2282
01:25:36,470 --> 01:25:34,400
the exact same wrap but genetically

2283
01:25:38,550 --> 01:25:36,480
identical rat into a large cage with a

2284
01:25:40,310 --> 01:25:38,560
bunch of toys and like social

2285
01:25:42,149 --> 01:25:40,320
relationships and it doesn't even though

2286
01:25:43,510 --> 01:25:42,159
there's an unlimited supply of cocaine

2287
01:25:44,870 --> 01:25:43,520
it doesn't touch it

2288
01:25:47,270 --> 01:25:44,880
and it's like well we could just say

2289
01:25:49,510 --> 01:25:47,280
that they're just stupid rats or we

2290
01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:49,520
could look at reality and be like that's

2291
01:25:52,950 --> 01:25:51,840
like basically a one-to-one

2292
01:25:55,910 --> 01:25:52,960
right

2293
01:25:58,310 --> 01:25:55,920
yeah so there's like so many underlying

2294
01:26:01,110 --> 01:25:58,320
structural things that are just uh

2295
01:26:03,189 --> 01:26:01,120
i think you know radically radicalizing

2296
01:26:05,750 --> 01:26:03,199
people further and and the

2297
01:26:08,070 --> 01:26:05,760
worst part is that once these feedback

2298
01:26:11,110 --> 01:26:08,080
loops begin like we're seeing with uh

2299
01:26:13,189 --> 01:26:11,120
lou and then his people who step up to

2300
01:26:16,149 --> 01:26:13,199
support him then get attacked and then

2301
01:26:17,830 --> 01:26:16,159
it sort of a cascading effect like it

2302
01:26:20,390 --> 01:26:17,840
gets worse and worse and it is a

2303
01:26:23,510 --> 01:26:20,400
feedback loop and

2304
01:26:26,629 --> 01:26:23,520
it's really hard to break that cycle

2305
01:26:29,830 --> 01:26:26,639
when the people involved are not

2306
01:26:32,629 --> 01:26:29,840
cognizant of why these things are

2307
01:26:34,709 --> 01:26:32,639
happening from a structural perspective

2308
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:34,719
and we have so we have uh it looks like

2309
01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:36,560
almost 20 viewers right now which it's

2310
01:26:39,750 --> 01:26:37,920
pretty cool right like it's only our

2311
01:26:42,149 --> 01:26:39,760
second time doing this but like i'm

2312
01:26:44,070 --> 01:26:42,159
watching the chat and i would love um

2313
01:26:45,669 --> 01:26:44,080
responses from anyone watching about

2314
01:26:47,350 --> 01:26:45,679
what is it what does moving forward in

2315
01:26:49,350 --> 01:26:47,360
the community actually look like like

2316
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:49,360
how do we build bridges here how do we

2317
01:26:53,270 --> 01:26:51,120
continue to do better and do right by

2318
01:26:55,270 --> 01:26:53,280
each other um because

2319
01:26:58,229 --> 01:26:55,280
you know i think we're really

2320
01:26:59,110 --> 01:26:58,239
we're focused on continuing to build

2321
01:27:04,550 --> 01:26:59,120
this

2322
01:27:07,189 --> 01:27:04,560
and to encourage intelligent and

2323
01:27:08,629 --> 01:27:07,199
critical discourse in this community um

2324
01:27:10,870 --> 01:27:08,639
and what does that mean like what what

2325
01:27:12,709 --> 01:27:10,880
does that look like because uh you know

2326
01:27:14,470 --> 01:27:12,719
look we're the ones live streaming in

2327
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:14,480
behind the microphones but this is all

2328
01:27:18,950 --> 01:27:17,280
our first rodeo too

2329
01:27:21,669 --> 01:27:18,960
and as you know people who want to be

2330
01:27:24,229 --> 01:27:21,679
cultural carriers in this community

2331
01:27:26,470 --> 01:27:24,239
how can we do that in a way that is

2332
01:27:29,910 --> 01:27:26,480
like that allows us to be good stewards

2333
01:27:31,910 --> 01:27:29,920
of this subject and not to contribute to

2334
01:27:33,750 --> 01:27:31,920
unnecessary candidly like unnecessary

2335
01:27:35,830 --> 01:27:33,760
human suffering but also just further

2336
01:27:37,669 --> 01:27:35,840
fractionalizing of the community or

2337
01:27:40,470 --> 01:27:37,679
further falconizing of it what does it

2338
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:42,070
so this comment here rational

2339
01:27:46,070 --> 01:27:43,920
discussions like this that take humanity

2340
01:27:48,470 --> 01:27:46,080
into consideration right like none of us

2341
01:27:49,990 --> 01:27:48,480
is none of this is happening in a vacuum

2342
01:27:51,189 --> 01:27:50,000
um we're all like campbell said we're

2343
01:27:54,550 --> 01:27:51,199
all very much victims of our

2344
01:27:56,629 --> 01:27:54,560
circumstances for better overs um

2345
01:27:57,990 --> 01:27:56,639
and i i will certainly be the first to

2346
01:28:00,310 --> 01:27:58,000
say that i have had a whole lot of

2347
01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:00,320
arguments because i was hungry tired

2348
01:28:04,310 --> 01:28:02,960
sleep deprived not at home you know jet

2349
01:28:07,189 --> 01:28:04,320
lagged whatever

2350
01:28:10,709 --> 01:28:09,110
from simon the community needs to become

2351
01:28:12,870 --> 01:28:10,719
smaller separate communities in my

2352
01:28:14,870 --> 01:28:12,880
opinion yeah i mean and that's you know

2353
01:28:16,070 --> 01:28:14,880
if if this balkanization continues i

2354
01:28:16,950 --> 01:28:16,080
think that's really what we're going to

2355
01:28:20,709 --> 01:28:16,960
see

2356
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:20,719
further breaking apart but i i don't

2357
01:28:23,830 --> 01:28:22,560
think that's necessarily in service to

2358
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:23,840
the good of the community i think the

2359
01:28:27,510 --> 01:28:26,000
community thrives and does best and

2360
01:28:28,629 --> 01:28:27,520
honestly is the most resilient and

2361
01:28:30,790 --> 01:28:28,639
robust

2362
01:28:32,550 --> 01:28:30,800
when it has space for interdisciplinary

2363
01:28:34,470 --> 01:28:32,560
and cross-disciplinary discourse and

2364
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:34,480
collaboration

2365
01:28:39,910 --> 01:28:36,719
that's true now it's something that i'm

2366
01:28:42,310 --> 01:28:39,920
thinking of because i i mean like i have

2367
01:28:45,110 --> 01:28:42,320
very nice friendships with a number of

2368
01:28:47,110 --> 01:28:45,120
uh experiencers and truth seekers like

2369
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:47,120
very positive uh one-on-one

2370
01:28:52,470 --> 01:28:49,760
relationships even if on ufo twitter in

2371
01:28:54,950 --> 01:28:52,480
general we would if we did not know each

2372
01:28:57,430 --> 01:28:54,960
other probably uh get into our arguments

2373
01:28:59,270 --> 01:28:57,440
or something and i

2374
01:29:00,470 --> 01:28:59,280
like i just know that

2375
01:29:01,750 --> 01:29:00,480
it's like

2376
01:29:04,070 --> 01:29:01,760
since

2377
01:29:07,510 --> 01:29:04,080
we know i mean okay and i'm just quoting

2378
01:29:09,510 --> 01:29:07,520
the ideas behind what like the reaction

2379
01:29:13,030 --> 01:29:09,520
to what we're saying i can sort of

2380
01:29:14,470 --> 01:29:13,040
visualize it it's like since we know

2381
01:29:16,629 --> 01:29:14,480
that

2382
01:29:18,629 --> 01:29:16,639
the phenomenon is here

2383
01:29:20,629 --> 01:29:18,639
we don't need to be debunking anymore

2384
01:29:22,790 --> 01:29:20,639
that's the argument i keep getting like

2385
01:29:24,390 --> 01:29:22,800
debunked and i don't agree with it

2386
01:29:26,390 --> 01:29:24,400
obviously because it's like even if the

2387
01:29:28,950 --> 01:29:26,400
phenomenon is here there are

2388
01:29:31,110 --> 01:29:28,960
false positives of course so there's

2389
01:29:32,550 --> 01:29:31,120
always value in that but

2390
01:29:33,910 --> 01:29:32,560
even the biggest believer will admit

2391
01:29:36,470 --> 01:29:33,920
that that there have been hoax and

2392
01:29:37,430 --> 01:29:36,480
mis-identifications and debunked cases

2393
01:29:39,189 --> 01:29:37,440
right

2394
01:29:41,110 --> 01:29:39,199
yeah but and then there's a perception

2395
01:29:42,629 --> 01:29:41,120
though that like at this point it and

2396
01:29:44,229 --> 01:29:42,639
it's like it's so hard to get through

2397
01:29:46,390 --> 01:29:44,239
that uh because

2398
01:29:48,470 --> 01:29:46,400
i've seen so much of the back and forth

2399
01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:48,480
right because it's like

2400
01:30:04,950 --> 01:29:49,199
i

2401
01:30:07,189 --> 01:30:04,960
you know all these one-on-one

2402
01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:07,199
conversations so many uh engagements and

2403
01:30:14,950 --> 01:30:13,270
in part it's because after reading the

2404
01:30:15,669 --> 01:30:14,960
science papers

2405
01:30:16,870 --> 01:30:15,679
i

2406
01:30:18,310 --> 01:30:16,880
became

2407
01:30:20,390 --> 01:30:18,320
convinced that on a balance of

2408
01:30:23,189 --> 01:30:20,400
probabilities i personally think that

2409
01:30:24,470 --> 01:30:23,199
it's more likely than not that there is

2410
01:30:26,950 --> 01:30:24,480
a novel

2411
01:30:29,030 --> 01:30:26,960
phenomenon occurring that meets the

2412
01:30:31,830 --> 01:30:29,040
definitional criteria set by the us

2413
01:30:33,430 --> 01:30:31,840
government and historic ufologists as to

2414
01:30:35,350 --> 01:30:33,440
there's maybe something actually going

2415
01:30:36,550 --> 01:30:35,360
on here now i

2416
01:30:39,270 --> 01:30:36,560
because i

2417
01:30:41,990 --> 01:30:39,280
am a materialist and was raised with the

2418
01:30:43,350 --> 01:30:42,000
scientific you know whatever i

2419
01:30:45,350 --> 01:30:43,360
think that it's more likely that it's

2420
01:30:47,910 --> 01:30:45,360
going to end up probably being something

2421
01:30:51,270 --> 01:30:47,920
a natural phenomenon but i don't know

2422
01:30:53,350 --> 01:30:51,280
that but seeing the way that and i know

2423
01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:53,360
most skeptics are not like pointing at

2424
01:30:57,110 --> 01:30:54,960
individuals in the community being like

2425
01:31:00,070 --> 01:30:57,120
you're stupid but when they get up and

2426
01:31:02,229 --> 01:31:00,080
they talk about like um and i you know i

2427
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:02,239
really respect the jason colavito but

2428
01:31:05,590 --> 01:31:03,760
like in his interview with mick west

2429
01:31:07,750 --> 01:31:05,600
when he keeps talking about like space

2430
01:31:10,149 --> 01:31:07,760
ghosts it's like i'm hearing it and i'm

2431
01:31:12,470 --> 01:31:10,159
just thinking like it's like you're

2432
01:31:15,350 --> 01:31:12,480
making fun of their like

2433
01:31:17,030 --> 01:31:15,360
heroes and it's gonna just stop like so

2434
01:31:18,870 --> 01:31:17,040
much good information is being shared

2435
01:31:21,669 --> 01:31:18,880
here but it's gonna be on deaf ears

2436
01:31:23,510 --> 01:31:21,679
because it's this ups like it's it's the

2437
01:31:26,229 --> 01:31:23,520
it's almost like just the basic baseline

2438
01:31:28,310 --> 01:31:26,239
of disrespect is so important and it's i

2439
01:31:30,070 --> 01:31:28,320
think it's often overlooked and like how

2440
01:31:31,750 --> 01:31:30,080
much of this could be resolved if we all

2441
01:31:34,310 --> 01:31:31,760
just sort of came at this with a little

2442
01:31:36,390 --> 01:31:34,320
bit more respect for each other

2443
01:31:38,709 --> 01:31:36,400
yeah and i think like i want to call out

2444
01:31:40,310 --> 01:31:38,719
uh lord ludacris this comment here there

2445
01:31:42,390 --> 01:31:40,320
isn't much human interaction i think

2446
01:31:44,229 --> 01:31:42,400
spaces may help some but hurt others and

2447
01:31:46,709 --> 01:31:44,239
there's no context or nuance on twitter

2448
01:31:47,910 --> 01:31:46,719
and in text and that's like i think i

2449
01:31:49,430 --> 01:31:47,920
mean candidly i think that's what's

2450
01:31:51,189 --> 01:31:49,440
helped us in the invisible night school

2451
01:31:53,189 --> 01:31:51,199
be so successful is by hosting these

2452
01:31:54,950 --> 01:31:53,199
twitter spaces there's an enormous

2453
01:31:58,070 --> 01:31:54,960
humanizing element to having a voice

2454
01:31:59,510 --> 01:31:58,080
conversation you can hear tone mood

2455
01:32:01,669 --> 01:31:59,520
jokes whatever

2456
01:32:02,470 --> 01:32:01,679
um that you lose

2457
01:32:05,110 --> 01:32:02,480
uh

2458
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:05,120
in on twitter or in text or in comment

2459
01:32:09,830 --> 01:32:07,920
streams um

2460
01:32:10,950 --> 01:32:09,840
and i think

2461
01:32:12,550 --> 01:32:10,960
you know

2462
01:32:15,830 --> 01:32:12,560
and very much to the credit of the

2463
01:32:18,790 --> 01:32:15,840
gentleman on this call with me like

2464
01:32:20,629 --> 01:32:18,800
everyone here has been so respectful in

2465
01:32:22,950 --> 01:32:20,639
their questioning and in their

2466
01:32:24,070 --> 01:32:22,960
approaches to this subject

2467
01:32:28,470 --> 01:32:24,080
and i think

2468
01:32:31,830 --> 01:32:28,480
being able to put i would say

2469
01:32:34,470 --> 01:32:31,840
intellectual genuity ahead of

2470
01:32:37,350 --> 01:32:34,480
our ego attachments to our own ideas and

2471
01:32:38,310 --> 01:32:37,360
beliefs like that to me feels like

2472
01:32:41,030 --> 01:32:38,320
uh

2473
01:32:44,149 --> 01:32:41,040
the way to continue building

2474
01:32:46,390 --> 01:32:44,159
this sort of community that we want um

2475
01:32:48,550 --> 01:32:46,400
and i also i did like this comment from

2476
01:32:49,990 --> 01:32:48,560
beverly here ego deaths for all if any

2477
01:32:52,629 --> 01:32:50,000
of you want to take a heroic dose of

2478
01:32:54,709 --> 01:32:52,639
mushrooms sometime we could uh all enjoy

2479
01:32:57,189 --> 01:32:54,719
dissolving into the abyss of cosmic

2480
01:32:59,430 --> 01:32:57,199
consciousness uh but until that world

2481
01:33:00,950 --> 01:32:59,440
comes around i think we're probably just

2482
01:33:05,430 --> 01:33:00,960
stuck with twitter spaces and live

2483
01:33:09,830 --> 01:33:07,830
yeah and i would not recommend the uh

2484
01:33:11,510 --> 01:33:09,840
mushroom-induced ego death just from

2485
01:33:15,030 --> 01:33:11,520
personal experience

2486
01:33:17,669 --> 01:33:16,310
what do they call you have to become a

2487
01:33:22,310 --> 01:33:17,679
psychonaut

2488
01:33:26,229 --> 01:33:23,669
yeah i mean

2489
01:33:28,149 --> 01:33:26,239
this was this was a good stream i am

2490
01:33:30,149 --> 01:33:28,159
you know we we had initially started out

2491
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:30,159
thinking we were going to talk about the

2492
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:32,639
uh what is it the lake michigan 1994

2493
01:33:36,149 --> 01:33:34,800
case and i had i had sort of pregame

2494
01:33:37,750 --> 01:33:36,159
nick to be like hope you're ready to

2495
01:33:38,950 --> 01:33:37,760
talk about how you do research but i

2496
01:33:41,110 --> 01:33:38,960
think

2497
01:33:42,390 --> 01:33:41,120
dude this here's the good news we're

2498
01:33:44,149 --> 01:33:42,400
playing an infinite game here there's

2499
01:33:45,189 --> 01:33:44,159
going to be more of these live streams

2500
01:33:47,030 --> 01:33:45,199
um

2501
01:33:48,950 --> 01:33:47,040
but i think this was a great opportunity

2502
01:33:51,030 --> 01:33:48,960
for us to kind of work through some of

2503
01:33:51,830 --> 01:33:51,040
the you know current

2504
01:33:53,750 --> 01:33:51,840
um

2505
01:33:55,350 --> 01:33:53,760
tensions in the communities and and

2506
01:33:58,310 --> 01:33:55,360
really give consideration to what it

2507
01:34:00,709 --> 01:33:58,320
looks like for us uh as people in this

2508
01:34:02,470 --> 01:34:00,719
community to continue to do better and

2509
01:34:03,669 --> 01:34:02,480
continue to uh to push the needle

2510
01:34:05,750 --> 01:34:03,679
forward

2511
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:05,760
in collaboration and cooperation with

2512
01:34:10,390 --> 01:34:08,080
one another

2513
01:34:12,550 --> 01:34:10,400
absolutely

2514
01:34:14,629 --> 01:34:12,560
so before we wrap things up why don't we

2515
01:34:16,310 --> 01:34:14,639
just do a quick round table what do

2516
01:34:17,750 --> 01:34:16,320
people have on deck what are you working

2517
01:34:18,870 --> 01:34:17,760
on

2518
01:34:20,310 --> 01:34:18,880
campbell

2519
01:34:22,390 --> 01:34:20,320
yeah uh

2520
01:34:24,070 --> 01:34:22,400
well you know what i'm actually almost

2521
01:34:25,990 --> 01:34:24,080
basically between things right now last

2522
01:34:28,070 --> 01:34:26,000
time i was saying i was gonna update my

2523
01:34:30,149 --> 01:34:28,080
website uh because i was getting some

2524
01:34:31,430 --> 01:34:30,159
feedback from some experiences i was

2525
01:34:33,830 --> 01:34:31,440
talking to saying they felt it was a

2526
01:34:36,310 --> 01:34:33,840
little bit biased and uh

2527
01:34:37,990 --> 01:34:36,320
so i changed it around i deleted a bunch

2528
01:34:40,629 --> 01:34:38,000
of segments

2529
01:34:42,629 --> 01:34:40,639
some of my personal commentary that uh

2530
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:42,639
was being screenshot and sent to me as

2531
01:34:46,790 --> 01:34:44,800
being especially egregious so i got rid

2532
01:34:50,310 --> 01:34:46,800
of that because it wasn't providing any

2533
01:34:52,310 --> 01:34:50,320
value so so i got i did that um and i've

2534
01:34:55,109 --> 01:34:52,320
started to

2535
01:34:58,629 --> 01:34:55,119
begin the uh

2536
01:35:00,550 --> 01:34:58,639
outline of a new paper to publish but i

2537
01:35:02,070 --> 01:35:00,560
have not like dove into that at all yet

2538
01:35:03,750 --> 01:35:02,080
but that's my first thing

2539
01:35:06,550 --> 01:35:03,760
nice

2540
01:35:09,430 --> 01:35:07,669
yes

2541
01:35:12,310 --> 01:35:09,440
guess what i'm reading about

2542
01:35:16,470 --> 01:35:12,320
nazis and occultism and theosophy

2543
01:35:21,270 --> 01:35:19,030
that's cool

2544
01:35:23,189 --> 01:35:21,280
um

2545
01:35:25,510 --> 01:35:23,199
i'm uh i'm actually writing a case

2546
01:35:29,109 --> 01:35:25,520
review on um lake michigan i'm trying to

2547
01:35:30,709 --> 01:35:29,119
put together kind of a cohesive timeline

2548
01:35:32,470 --> 01:35:30,719
just due to the fact that the

2549
01:35:34,310 --> 01:35:32,480
documentation or documentation about

2550
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:34,320
this case is really scatter shot like

2551
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:36,000
you don't see it in your whole books you

2552
01:35:39,109 --> 01:35:37,760
don't see it in the

2553
01:35:41,510 --> 01:35:39,119
in the journals or anything like that

2554
01:35:42,950 --> 01:35:41,520
you don't see it on the docs so like

2555
01:35:44,950 --> 01:35:42,960
it's all kind of

2556
01:35:47,590 --> 01:35:44,960
pieced together so i'm working on that

2557
01:35:49,430 --> 01:35:47,600
i'm also going to be on um strange recon

2558
01:35:52,310 --> 01:35:49,440
tomorrow morning at

2559
01:35:54,790 --> 01:35:52,320
10 a.m eastern i think

2560
01:35:56,390 --> 01:35:54,800
we're talking about but uh i'll be there

2561
01:35:58,550 --> 01:35:56,400
so you can check me out maybe i will get

2562
01:35:59,990 --> 01:35:58,560
a chance to talk about this case on that

2563
01:36:01,350 --> 01:36:00,000
show

2564
01:36:02,550 --> 01:36:01,360
awesome nice

2565
01:36:04,229 --> 01:36:02,560
yeah i think we should definitely

2566
01:36:05,669 --> 01:36:04,239
reserve uh one of our upcoming live

2567
01:36:08,830 --> 01:36:05,679
streams to talk through your work on the

2568
01:36:12,310 --> 01:36:08,840
michigan case nick

2569
01:36:14,229 --> 01:36:12,320
um yeah and i am you know just doing

2570
01:36:16,310 --> 01:36:14,239
some of the behind the scenes janitorial

2571
01:36:19,030 --> 01:36:16,320
work to keep the invisible night school

2572
01:36:21,510 --> 01:36:19,040
uh running i'll be on the mind escape

2573
01:36:23,669 --> 01:36:21,520
podcast on september 12th discussing uh

2574
01:36:25,430 --> 01:36:23,679
not ufos i'll be talking about global

2575
01:36:27,669 --> 01:36:25,440
and catastrophic risk and artificial

2576
01:36:29,990 --> 01:36:27,679
intelligence so nice

2577
01:36:31,669 --> 01:36:30,000
getting into another personal subject

2578
01:36:32,709 --> 01:36:31,679
matter that i love

2579
01:36:34,669 --> 01:36:32,719
um

2580
01:36:36,310 --> 01:36:34,679
yeah you can find us on the

2581
01:36:38,310 --> 01:36:36,320
invisiblenightschool.com we've included

2582
01:36:40,229 --> 01:36:38,320
a link to our public discord server it's

2583
01:36:41,189 --> 01:36:40,239
in the video descriptions here on

2584
01:36:43,830 --> 01:36:41,199
youtube

2585
01:36:46,470 --> 01:36:43,840
um keep an eye on all of our twitters

2586
01:36:47,750 --> 01:36:46,480
we do host twitter spaces about weekly i

2587
01:36:49,510 --> 01:36:47,760
expect we'll probably hold one either

2588
01:36:51,109 --> 01:36:49,520
monday or tuesday evening of this coming

2589
01:36:53,669 --> 01:36:51,119
week we'd love for any of our viewers to

2590
01:36:55,030 --> 01:36:53,679
join us join the conversation um and

2591
01:36:56,870 --> 01:36:55,040
then we're also going to be aiming to

2592
01:36:58,550 --> 01:36:56,880
hold these uh live streams saturday

2593
01:36:59,430 --> 01:36:58,560
evenings going forward

2594
01:37:01,590 --> 01:36:59,440
um

2595
01:37:03,430 --> 01:37:01,600
so thank you all for joining us uh

2596
01:37:05,990 --> 01:37:03,440
please like share subscribe do all that

2597
01:37:09,590 --> 01:37:06,000
good stuff help us grow an audience